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The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

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Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#101
post #93
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dropping bombs on innocent civilians in a third world country Is this really what political analysis has stooped to on HN in 2023? A total abdication of any attempt at nuance, or framing, or examining underlying intentions. Such a shame.

What nuance needs to be added to blowing up hospitals?

The nuance where disinformation and lies have convinced you the wrong people blew up a hospital [parking lot]?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosio...

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#102
post #86
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> destroyed absolutely without question or hesitation I think the concern is this line. Israel is trying to “destroy absolutely without question” Hamas but at the same time “accidentally” targeting civilians and “incite terror” amongst Palestinians. At least that’s the view of some people that support Palestine. In this case, it might not be clear who the terrorists are.

Intent matters. If you are trying to destroy terrorists, it can be a messy job that results in innocent bystanders also dying, but that alone doesn’t make you a terrorist. When you specifically target innocent civilians just to make some kind of point, you are a terrorist.

I’ve heard people argue that the intent is unclear when over 60% of the death toll in Gaza are civilians.

I have obviously never been involved in war so I’m not sure if that’s normal.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#103
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What on earth makes you think this is an appropriate place to post 4chan links, or that anyone interested in sane discussion would click that? If you have an argument to make, make it here. I still can't tell if you're insane because you think it's an inside job, or you're insane because you think some anonymous 4chan user is the top source to prove the alternative.

[flagged]

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#104
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Powers will tend to declare their means of war legitimate and the means of war available to their enemies to be illegitimate. I think it's simplistic to declare our enemies "evil" because they're denied access (fortunately) to the kinds of expensive weapons systems that our own propaganda views with approval.

Are you seriously saying that going to a Labour party youth camp to kill teenagers one by one to "eliminate the next generation of leftist" is somehow not evil? Or that strapping a bomb to a random kidnapped 9-year old girl is not evil? It is Evil. Full stop. No discussion. Whether someone else is also evil or not doesn't even come in to play.

Agreed.

Intentionally trying to blow up non-combatants is bad - and there is no way to make it good. Its one thing if non-combatants are collateral damage (war is dirty), its another thing entirely if ones intention is to intentionally kill civilians.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#106
post #92
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that war is ugly? It doesn't matter how justified a war is or isn't. Dropping bombs on an enemy are going to involves the risk of hitting civilians, especially if they are in a war zone, especially if insurgents or partisans are hiding among non-combatant. If they don't die due to bombs being dropped, they are going to die due to stray bullets. The only way to prevent that is not to go to war in the fi…

Same arguments can be made about terrorism. I'd argue that war was not the only choice in many instances it was used, just like terrorism wasn't the only choice. That may not be a popular opinion for either side. War is reactionary and somehow hasn't stopped terrorism despite its blunt usage. And terrorism hasn't stopped bombs from falling yet either.

War may be imposed upon you by one side, such as the invasion of a country. At which point, war stopped being a choice.

Terrorism as far as we can see is basically incredibly ineffective for inspiring any sort of changes, and serves to enrage your enemy, much like indiscriminate mass bombing often strengthen the resolve of those who are on the receiving end of it.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#107
post #21

> The Guardian has removed a letter written by Osama Bin Laden, explaining his war against the United States is partly because of its support of Israel, after it had gone viral on TikTok. If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop and any wavering from full support of the wars or "supporting the troops" was tantamount to supporting ter…

This is extraordinarily reductive and unnecessarily cynical. > If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop A significant part of that particular brand of terrorism is indeed hostile to cultures that don’t share their religious and cultural beliefs. We can’t reduce all of their motivations to singular slogans that fit neatly into TV comm…

> Not that simple. You think Palestinians love being beholden to the terrorist leadership that refuses to allow elections, is known for stealing their humanitarian aid to enrich themselves on the order of billions of dollars, and operates safely from a foreign country?

According to large segments of the political class in the US, yes they do love it. And in fact they are legitimate targets of the Israeli military because of it.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#108
post #104
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously saying that going to a Labour party youth camp to kill teenagers one by one to "eliminate the next generation of leftist" is somehow not evil? Or that strapping a bomb to a random kidnapped 9-year old girl is not evil? It is Evil. Full stop. No discussion. Whether someone else is also evil or not doesn't even come in to play.

Agreed. Intentionally trying to blow up non-combatants is bad - and there is no way to make it good. Its one thing if non-combatants are collateral damage (war is dirty), its another thing entirely if ones intention is to intentionally kill civilians.

But what if intentionally blowing up a hundred civilians saves a thousand more? That's one argument used to justify the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example, and the carpet-bombing of Germany. Many people have also disagreed with those arguments, but especially in the case of Germany it kind of was of a "kill some civilians to save many more" type of trolley problem – the greater Holocaust effort was stopped in more or less the earlier rather than later stages (I'm not very familiar with the Pacific war, so less comfterable commenting on that).

And what is a "civilian" anyway? Is someone who works in a gun factory a civilian or are they a legitimate target? What about a jeep factory? Or a factory which produces just some parts? What about the factory that provides steel? What about the lorry driver delivering the steel? Is someone who actively works to spread disinformation to justify something like the Russian invasion a civilian? Does it matter if they genuinely believe their own disinformation or if it's proven they know it's false?

In principle I agree with you as such and I think very few people disagree, but it's all pretty murky because most modern wars consist of much more than just soldiers going at each other. You need to look at the specifics of the situation in every single case.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#109
post #86
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> destroyed absolutely without question or hesitation I think the concern is this line. Israel is trying to “destroy absolutely without question” Hamas but at the same time “accidentally” targeting civilians and “incite terror” amongst Palestinians. At least that’s the view of some people that support Palestine. In this case, it might not be clear who the terrorists are.

Intent matters. If you are trying to destroy terrorists, it can be a messy job that results in innocent bystanders also dying, but that alone doesn’t make you a terrorist. When you specifically target innocent civilians just to make some kind of point, you are a terrorist.

Israel explicitly pursues collective punishment as a strategy. Always has and it's obviously what's happening in Gaza now.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#110
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropping bombs on innocent civilians in a third world country doesn't make you a hero either, but that doesn't stop our media from calling all members of the military involved in the wars in the middle East heroes. Also read more carefully they never said the "terrorists" were heroes they explained the point of view of the "terrorists"

Dropping a bomb technically doesn't make you a hero, and that's why Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump are not considered heros. Signing up at 18 years old to go fight in a foreign country after just a couple hundred hours of training, does make you a hero compared to those that sit at home their whole lives and do nothing to help maintain society. If heros that go into the military didn't exist, I'd be speaking German…

I disagree that voluntarily signing up for active military service automatically creates a hero. Even when "compared to those that sit at home their whole lives and do nothing to help maintain society".

Signing up for military service can be described as "heroic" or "honourable" at best.

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