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Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

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Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#141
post #81

I think the position of Gebru, et al, can best be expressed as a form of "human exceptionalism". As a teenager, my english teacher shared this writing by Faulkner, which he delivered as his Nobel Prize speech. I complained because the writing completely ignores the laws of thermodynamics about the end of the universe. """I believe that when the last ding-dong of doom has clanged and faded from the last worthless rock…

I don't think that the position of Gebru et al (or even more specifically the stochastic parrot paper) can be dismissed as solely relying on "human exceptionalism". While some of that sentiment arguably is there, the paper does make very valid points about the limitations of what can be learned solely from surface forms without any grounding in reality.

This is partially reflected by later observations from training LLMs where we see that the performance of LLMs increases even on purely language tasks when adding extra modalities such as computer code or images, which, in a sense, bring the model closer to different aspects of reality; and we observe that adding tiny quantities of "experimental interaction" through RLHF can bring features that additional humongous amounts of pure surface form training data can't, and it certainly seems plausible that making a qualitative leap further would require some data from actual causal interaction with the real world (i.e. not replay of data based on "someone else's" actions but feedback from whatever action the model currently feels is the most "interesting" i.e. the outcome is uncertain to the model but with potential for surprise data), where relatively tiny amounts of such data can enable learning what large amounts of pure observations can't - just as the hypothetical octopus from the stochastic parrot paper thought experiment.

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#142

> But he could understand so much more than he could say. If you asked him to point to the vacuum cleaner, he would. Perhaps worth noting that it is possible to teach infants (often starting at around 9 months) sign language so that they can more easily signal their desires. Some priority recommended words would probably be: * hungry/more * enough/all done (for when they're full) * drink (perhaps both milk/formula an…

> regular ASL gestures for the work in question. If you're not native English-speaking you'd look up the gestures in your specific region/language's sign language:

It probably doesn't matter either way for babies, but fyi ASL isn't a sign version of English; it is its own language. In fact American Sign Language is more closely related to French Sign Language than to British Sign Language. The Australian and New Zealand Sign Languages are largely derived from British Sign Language, so there isn't really a correlation between English speaking regions and ASL. Canadians mostly use American Sign Language and French Canadian Sign Language.

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#143
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, you can invent your own sign language because your child won't need to use it with other people.

Why not use a common sign language and give then a head start if they ever do want to use it outside the family?

They might not have the dexterity required for some of the more complex signs, I would guess. If you devise your own gestures they can be much simpler.

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#144
You are an evolutionary being, part of a much greater process than the process in your head. Your mind extends beyond your body and even if your mind was frozen in time like an LLM it would still be alive because it remains in a living environment.

Like so the Earth is alive and the universe would not be complete without you. Rest easy, little bird. One day you will spread the wings of your soul and the wind will do the rest.

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#145
post #56

Regarding dismissals of LLM’s on ‘technical’ grounds: Consciousness is first a word and second a concept. And it’s a word that ChatGPT or Llama can use in an English sentence better than billions of humans worldwide. The software folks have made even more progress than sociologists, psychologists and neuroscientists to be able to create an artificial language cortex before we understand our biological mind comprehens…

Totally agree with the sentiment. I find the constant debates on "is AI conscious" or "can AI understand" exhausting. You can't have a sound argument when neither party even agrees on a concrete definition of consciousness or understanding.

Regarding this line:

> ChatGPT can already tell you a lot about itself (showing awareness) and will gladly walk you through its “thinking” if you ask politely.

Is it actually walking you through its thinking? Or is it walking you through an imagined line of thinking?

Regardless, your main point still stands. That a program doesn't think the same way a human does, doesn't mean it isn't "thinking".

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#146
post #5

Often the "stochastic parrot" line is used as a reduction on what an LLM truly is. I firmly believe that LLMs are stochastic parrots and also that humans are too. To the point where I actually think even consciousness itself is a next-token predictor. Where the industry is headed - multi-modal models. This really I think is the remaining frontier of LLM Human parity. I also have a 15 month old son. It's totally obvio…

> I firmly believe that LLMs are stochastic parrots and also that humans are too. To the point where I actually think even consciousness itself is a next-token predictor. Almost every time I'm on hackernews I end up baffled by software engineers feeling entitled to have an unfunded opinion on scientific disciplines outside of their own field of expertise. I've literally never encountered that level of hubris from any…

> having a body and sensorimotor interactions with the environment are already established as fundamental preconditions for cognition and in turn consciousness.

Does someone who is blind is not conscious then? How about when someone who is paralysed? or deaf? or someone with low IQ or mental illness?

Stephen Hawking was paralysed most of his life but was a smart guy. If he was not only paralysed but also blind and deaf he would be smart guy still.

I don't think AGI needs to have a body, sensorimotor interaction or even vision to be conscious. We need those for training - if you would be blind, paralysed, deaf from the beginning it would be hard for you learn anything and interact in any way.

Machines have 6th sense that humans don't have - kind of a telepathy where they can exchange tokens/thoughts with different machines or humans much faster than we humans can type or speak.

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each successive comparison is likely getting closer and closer to the truth.

Very curious to know what the telos of "truth" is here for you? A comparison is a comparison, it can get no more "true." If you want to say: the terms of the comparisons seem to verge towards identity, then you aren't really talking about the same thing anymore. Further, you would need to assert that our conceptions of ourselves have remained static throughout the whole ordeal (pretty tough to defend), and you would…

An apple is like an orange. Both are round fruits, containing visible seeds, and relatively sweet. If you're hungry, they are both good choices.

But then again, an apple is nothing like an orange, particularly if you want to make an apple pie.

The purpose of a comparison is important in helping to define its scope.

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#148

Humans have a long history of comparing ourselves, and the universe, to our latest technological advancement. We used to be glorified clocks (as was the universe), then we were automatons, then computers, then NPC's, and now AI's (in particular LLM's). Which BTW I don't think is a completely absurd comparison, see https://mattasher.substack.com/p/ais-killer-app

Step A: build a machine which reflects a reduced and simplified model of how some part of a human works Step B: turn it on its head "the human brain is nothing more than... " It's a bit tautological. The worry is that there's a Step C: Humans actually start to behave as simple as said machine.

What machines have we built that reflect a reduced and simplified model of how some part of a human works (other than as a minor and generally invisible research projects) ?

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#149
No because your toddler has vision, audio, and touch sensors attached in order to correlate language use with 3D physical phenomena. Additionally, it has the ability to connect causal explanations of those phenomena with experiments it can perform to test or reject those explanations. And a brain composed of neurons that is exceptionally good at associative learning. LLMs have none of these features.

Re: Is my toddler a stochastic parrot?

#150
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs don't create new information, they only compress existing complexity in their train and inference data sets. Humans definitely create new information. (Well, at least some humans do.)

I agree. A thought experiment I had recently: Let's say we could somehow train an LLM on all written and spoken language from the western Roman civilization (Republic + Western Empire, up until 476 AD/CE, just so I don't muddy the experiment with near-modern timelines). Would it, without novel information from humans, ever be able to spit out a correct predecessor of modern science like atomic theory? What about stea…

For your thought experiment, I'd assert that the key missing part is experimentation in the real world, as that is what acquires new information, not the complexity of human brains working together.

If you took millions of genius-level immortal humans with all the same Roman data but had them sit in a blank, empty room with their hands tied and simply discuss philosophy for eternity, I'm certain that they would not be able ever spit out a correct predecessor of modern science like atomic theory. Perhaps they could spit out billions of theories including the atomic theory as well, but they would have no data to presume that the atomic theory is more relevant than any other. Extensive information processing can squeeze out every last ounce of knowledge from some data, but anything that isn't in that data can't be acquired by mere thinking about it. On the other hand, if you gave some "LLM++" the ability to toy around with reality and attempt all kinds of experiments to test various hypotheses, then I wouldn't assume that it would not be forever stuck in the knowledge of the era it was trained in.

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