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Nicotine (2016)

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Re: Nicotine (2016)

#181

Post by mock-possum »

permo-w wrote: post #50
insanitybit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have zero interest in cigarettes though. So like, let's say I started chewing a gum and then I became addicted to the gum. I'm assuming the downside here would be primarily withdrawal effects of not chewing the gum? It's not like it's going to be a gateway to cigarettes for me. You'll experience caffeine withdrawal too, so I'm not sure that's really a problem. From the article, > There is little evidence from the N…

everyone's a never-smoker until they're not. the sense I got with this article is that the author started with the presumption that nicotine from sources other than smoking is basically okay and built up from there. that's not to say that he's wrong, just that it didn't feel like a rational approach

To give an alternate perspective:

smoking cigarettes is just an all around bad experience, it smells bad, it tastes bad, it hurts my throat, and for what? Light headedness, possibly with the spins? And the smell lingers it gets into everything, you basically need to change your clothes after you smoke a cigarette.

I’m a non smoker period, and I can only assume this “oh everyone says they can’t get addicted to cigarettes until they start smoking” attitude can only be projection from hapless addicts. It just doesn’t work that way for me.

I’ve even tried nicotine gum, just to see if maybe it’s the smoking itself that’s a turnoff - without the smell and the taste, maybe nicotine is good on its own? But it’s not - it’s the same head-spinning mild nausea that I recognize right away from cigarettes. who is this drug for? Because it’s certainly not me. Addicted to this? I literally cannot imagine it, why would I seek such a comprehensively bad experience compulsively and repeatedly? It just doesn’t compute for me.

Re: Nicotine (2016)

#182

Post by standardUser »

throwbadubadu wrote: post #175
standardUser wrote: post #154

The addictive properties of nicotine aren't magic. It requires sustained, repeated consumption, like any physically addicting substances. And research has shown that different people have different propensities for addiction (same with cocaine and alcohol). But if you do become addicted to nicotine, and are one of the people with a high propensity for nicotine addiction, you're fucked. It's one of the most challengin…

As a former smoker I think you didn't fully read the article und understood author's and other's thesis that it is actually not the nicotine that makes for the strong cigarette addiction.

There is no such thing as a cigarette addiction. Nicotine is the addictive chemical in cigarettes. Yes, method of consumption matters, but if you regularly consume an addictive chemical you are at risk to develop an addiction to that chemical, regardless of method (though not necessarily regardless of quantity).

Re: Nicotine (2016)

#183

Post by qingcharles »

namanyayg wrote: post #164
fwungy wrote: post #155

I've used 2mg nicotine gum as a mental clarity aid for years. It's cheap, effective, and harmless AFAIK. I have stopped using it for months at a time and never has any withdrawal symptoms. Caffeine otoh is addictive for me and will cause withdrawal symptoms if I indulge too often. The caffeine buzz can make me jittery and increase ADHD type behaviors for me. Ymmv.

How long does the effect last? I started taking caffeine pills before working out (a ~100mg dose) and it works really well, I wonder if I should try out nicotine gum too

For me it is just like a more concentrated caffeine dose.

I had no noticeable addiction whatsoever, and I was hyperaware of the risk from the all the press over smoking addiction.

Amazon usually has some really great offers on nicotine gum if you drill through their site long enough.

Re: Nicotine (2016)

#184

Post by nrclark »

standardUser wrote: post #182
throwbadubadu wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former smoker I think you didn't fully read the article und understood author's and other's thesis that it is actually not the nicotine that makes for the strong cigarette addiction.

There is no such thing as a cigarette addiction. Nicotine is the addictive chemical in cigarettes. Yes, method of consumption matters, but if you regularly consume an addictive chemical you are at risk to develop an addiction to that chemical, regardless of method (though not necessarily regardless of quantity).

You might be overlooking a chemical conditioning element. A smoker gets a dopamine hit every time they take a pull from their cigarette. The smell, the sizzle, and the routine - all become associated with a reward pathway.

Nicotine is the chemical that causes this, but the addiction is far more than just nicotine alone.

Re: Nicotine (2016)

#185

Post by anbende »

standardUser wrote: post #154

The addictive properties of nicotine aren't magic. It requires sustained, repeated consumption, like any physically addicting substances. And research has shown that different people have different propensities for addiction (same with cocaine and alcohol). But if you do become addicted to nicotine, and are one of the people with a high propensity for nicotine addiction, you're fucked. It's one of the most challengin…

Research anecdote here. I’m a psychologist in a different area and a friend who did his PhD in cocaine research with rats told me this.

Addiction is highly dependent on the immediacy of the drug’s effect on the brain. For this reason, people who smoke cocaine (directly or as crack) are highly likely to get addicted. It may be the majority. People who snort it are less likely to get addicted. And there are a lot of casual cocaine users (snorting) who do not develop a long term life altering addiction. I believe he (researcher friend) said it was 10-15% who go on to become addicted. Still substantial and dangerous but much less than smoking.

His research was looking at delayed onset of cocaine in rats after they pushed their cocaine lever. At longer delays more and more rats showed little interest.

This is part of the overall addiction picture. Decoupling drug use behaviors (smoking, snorting, and lever pressing) from noticeable drug onset prevents reinforcement of the behavior and makes addiction less likely, often much less.

This would explain why nicotine patches and gum would potentially be much less addictive than cigarettes.

Re: Nicotine (2016)

#187

Post by hiAndrewQuinn »

I occasionally suck on a 2mg nicotine lozenge when doing activities I want to encourage (Anki, low intensity stationary biking). Seems to work well for habit formation for me, and I never really feel the urge to use them outside of those contexts.

Re: Nicotine (2016)

#188

Post by jtriangle »

xorbax wrote: post #143
dml2135 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno about that. Personally, I smoked cigarettes for about 5 years, then quit for about a decade, and then picked up vaping a few years ago. I’m definitely just as addicted to the Juul as I ever was to cigarettes, if not more so, and it definitely seems like it will be harder to quit. Cigarettes are so gross it’s almost a benefit, you need to go outside to smoke, the vape is just so easy and so much cleaner, I’ve…

My friends who took up vaping (esp in pandemic) ended up vaping near-constantly It's not the 80s, so vaping allows one to sit around the house and duff it in a way that most people wouldn't do with cigarettes. I feel like nicotine intake can dramatically increase with vaping.

Mathwise it's about 6mg of nicotine adsorbed per cigarette. That gives you a way to compare dosage of nicotine to vaping a certain concentration of juice.

Probably not a great 1:1 because there are other things in play with smoking, but, ballparky enough.

If you wanted something closer, you'd need to figure out how the other compounds in cigarette smoke affect nicotine adsorption and activity.

Re: Nicotine (2016)

#189

Post by saila »

jtriangle wrote: post #37
insanitybit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have zero interest in cigarettes though. So like, let's say I started chewing a gum and then I became addicted to the gum. I'm assuming the downside here would be primarily withdrawal effects of not chewing the gum? It's not like it's going to be a gateway to cigarettes for me. You'll experience caffeine withdrawal too, so I'm not sure that's really a problem. From the article, > There is little evidence from the N…

Anecdotally, I've accidentally quit vaping several times, because I don't vape when I've caught a cold and that's coincided with me needing to buy supplies. I've gone back to it because I find it enjoyable, but, having watched my father quit smoking several times, I can't say that I've ever had withdrawals like that, or really at all. So my theory is, really, that cigarettes and tobacco in general is far more addicti…

I was an occasional smoker for over a decade and only got addicted to nicotine when I started vaping. It's more anecdata, but I don't think vaping is any less addictive than smoking cigarettes, and for many people vaping will increase their likelihood of addiction just because it's easier to vape unnoticed and there's no natural stopping point like there is with cigarettes.

I've also temporarily quit nicotine and caffeine when I got sick, and I think part of the reason is that the withdrawal effects are less noticeable and/or maybe you attribute them to the illness. Also, if you get sick enough to take time off from work, that tends to coincide with the worst withdrawal effects, which last about three days in my experience.

Re: Nicotine (2016)

#190

Post by nickelpro »

reactordev wrote: post #75
insanitybit wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound true.

Try it then. As someone who smoked and quit and have had friends who smoked and quit who also had heroin habits, they corroborate the difficulty. It’s a different type of struggle but the struggle is strong just the same.

I've quit both cigarettes and a middling amphetamines addiction.

Quitting cigarettes was trivial. I decided not to buy a pack that day and then never bought another pack. That's my anecdotal contribution to the discussion.

Less anecdotally:

Opioid withdrawal, in extreme cases, has killed people from persistent vomiting and diarrhea. It has measurable physical symptoms with an understood pathophysiology largely connected to the cAMP-signaling system.

Nicotine withdrawal is far less understood, to the degree it has been classified at all (mostly in studies of mice). It certainly has never killed anyone, you're not going to shit yourself to death. They're not comparable to one another.

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