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Whither philosophy?

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Re: Whither philosophy?

#141

Post by Zuider »

jfengel wrote: post #126
dventimi wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a philosophical notion.

The book "Physics" was written by Aristotle, who is so much of a philosopher that he's often called "The Philosopher". He's also the author of a book called "Metaphysics", pretty much the quintessential field of philosophy. The entire point of this conversation was that some fields, including physics, get split off from philosophy, leaving behind a mishmash. But many scientific fields absolutely began as aspects of p…

Aristotle's actual writings are lost. The books attributed to Aristotle are comprised of lecture notes collected by his students, later compiled according to topic, so you get the Ethics, the Politics, the Physics and Metaphysics.

They didn't quite know how to name the last book since its contents were so abstract and unrelated to the everyday world, so they simply called it "the book that comes after the Physics," which eventually became known as the Metaphysics. It is worth noting that the title is a specific reference to the book, not to any notion of the subject matter somehow transcending physics. After all, why physics, in particular?

In the light of that, it is even more jarring to see the term 'metaphysics' being used to describe spiritualism and new age mysticism.

Re: Whither philosophy?

#142

Post by mistermann »

keiferski wrote: post #122
mistermann wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do people insist on reading the absolute worst interpretation of every comment on the internet? Honestly. It is so tiresome. Do you feel similarly about the rigor of the scientific method?

You're gonna have to unpack that, because it's not clear to me how it has anything to do with my comment.

I am sorry to hear of your predicament, best of luck to you.

Re: Whither philosophy?

#143

Post by dventimi »

JonChesterfield wrote: post #135
dventimi wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a philosophical notion.

In a literal sense it is no longer considered philosophy because it did pay off. The field is somewhat doomed to only contain the good ideas of the future and the bad ideas of the present, because as soon as they are identified as good ideas they get their own branding and are no longer part of philosophy. For example, my current distraction is homotopy type theory which is a way to reason about computable functions…

That's Carnegie Mellon University, not Cornell.

Re: Whither philosophy?

#144

Post by dventimi »

jfengel wrote: post #126
dventimi wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a philosophical notion.

The book "Physics" was written by Aristotle, who is so much of a philosopher that he's often called "The Philosopher". He's also the author of a book called "Metaphysics", pretty much the quintessential field of philosophy. The entire point of this conversation was that some fields, including physics, get split off from philosophy, leaving behind a mishmash. But many scientific fields absolutely began as aspects of p…

That "book" whoever wrote it, is utterly useless for practicing modern physics.

Re: Whither philosophy?

#145

Post by mistermann »

kbrkbr wrote: post #132
mistermann wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The evidence is that we have so many incompatible systems that all claim to be true. Imagine the mess science would be if it brought this level of accuracy and epistemology to the table when thinking.

I probably don't understand clearly enough. Physics, chemistry, biology, even psychology have textbooks. Pick one, it doesn't matter much. It will teach you roughly the same basic things. Philosophy on the other hand. Pick Searle or Derrida, pick Quine or the late Heidegger, and it is hard to conceive that they are even doing the same thing ("philosophy").

>I probably don't understand clearly enough. Physics, chemistry, biology, even psychology have textbooks. Pick one, it doesn't matter much. It will teach you roughly the same basic things.

And generally speaking, the practitioners of these disciplines tend to assert that their findings are true, in fact. Whether they are actually true....well, interest in that tends to drop off quite rapidly.

Welcome to Planet Earth, 2023, please enjoy your stay.

>Philosophy on the other hand. Pick Searle or Derrida, pick Quine or the late Heidegger, and it is hard to conceive that they are even doing the same thing ("philosophy").

Investigating the mysterious extremes of a system is a lot harder than investigating the known to be (now, after many decades of very hard work and dedication) deterministic middle ground.

At the end of the day, everyone is doing their best, and Mother Nature will award us with the fruits of our collective activities...unfortunately, our (projected) rewards seem to be taking a steeply downward trajectory with this whole climate change thing. Shame there seems to be not much we can (actually) do about it, despite our over-abundance of surely fantastic ideas.

Re: Whither philosophy?

#146

Post by dventimi »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #128
dventimi wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a philosophical notion.

In 1687 Isaac Newton wrote a book "Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica", where he describes laws of motion and gravitation.

Yet today the branch of physics that bears his name and still embodies his ideas and methods is typically taught within the physics department but not the philosophy department.

Re: Whither philosophy?

#147

Post by mistermann »

dale_glass wrote: post #129
mistermann wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure. But I highly doubt that philosophy holds the answer. Do you have any interest in the truth of the matter though? Can you have any, and how much? Might you have some unrealized limitations imposed upon not just your beliefs, but your forms of thinking? Perhaps considering what's at stake could offer additional motivation. >Like take the current conflict in Gaza. Can you imagine solving it by having both sides r…

> Do you have any interest in the truth of the matter though? Truth of which matter? > Can science solve it, limited to Grade 10 scientific curriculum, or at all? They've certainly helped with the weaponry part. I mean, a conflict certainly can end if everyone on one side of it dies, but I don't think that's quite the sort of solution one expects in a discussion about philosophy. > And yes, I certainly can. Do tell.

> Truth of which matter?

Whether philosophy holds the answer. I literally quoted the text above my reply.

> I mean, a conflict certainly can end if everyone on one side of it dies, but I don't think that's quite the sort of solution one expects in a discussion about philosophy.

No need to answer the question if you find it uncomfortable.

> Do tell.

Loose lips sink ships.

Re: Whither philosophy?

#148

Post by defrost »

dventimi wrote: post #146
GoblinSlayer wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1687 Isaac Newton wrote a book "Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica", where he describes laws of motion and gravitation.

Yet today the branch of physics that bears his name and still embodies his ideas and methods is typically taught within the physics department but not the philosophy department.

Which in no way negates the claim that physics answers the question of

    What's an example of a philosophical notion that did pay off?
FWiW modern physicists that have been short listed as replacements to Hawking for the Lucasian Chair have studied philosophy as part of their education and found it useful in advancing their ability to reason.

eg: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/j.gauntlett

Re: Whither philosophy?

#149

Post by dventimi »

defrost wrote: post #148
dventimi wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet today the branch of physics that bears his name and still embodies his ideas and methods is typically taught within the physics department but not the philosophy department.

Which in no way negates the claim that physics answers the question of What's an example of a philosophical notion that did pay off? FWiW modern physicists that have been short listed as replacements to Hawking for the Lucasian Chair have studied philosophy as part of their education and found it useful in advancing their ability to reason. eg: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/j.gauntlett

> which in no way negates the claim [about physics and philosophy]

Whether that claim is true or not depends on the meanings people assign to the terms "physics" and "philosophy." Newton may have called himself a philosopher but we're not obliged to follow suit. If the fruits of his labor today are taught as physics but not as philosophy, that supports the argument that today we should regard him as a physicist by today's standards and not a philosopher.

Re: Whither philosophy?

#150

Post by defrost »

dventimi wrote: post #149
defrost wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which in no way negates the claim that physics answers the question of What's an example of a philosophical notion that did pay off? FWiW modern physicists that have been short listed as replacements to Hawking for the Lucasian Chair have studied philosophy as part of their education and found it useful in advancing their ability to reason. eg: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/j.gauntlett

> which in no way negates the claim [about physics and philosophy] Whether that claim is true or not depends on the meanings people assign to the terms "physics" and "philosophy." Newton may have called himself a philosopher but we're not obliged to follow suit. If the fruits of his labor today are taught as physics but not as philosophy, that supports the argument that today we should regard him as a physicist by to…

Are you claiming that modern physics is not a branch of past philosophy?

Myself and a number of others who have studied and work in physics|mathematics regard it as such and thus regard physics as an example of something worthwhile that arose from philosophy.

Similarly one can regard modern 20th century logical philosophy in the same light and embarce the work of Russell, Godel, Turing, Church, et al as worthwhile developments of philosophy.

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