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PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

codinghorror.com

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Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#41

Post by pjmlp »

ryannielsen wrote: post #28

Things that don't matter: - OS - Language - Compiler - Runtime - Editor - Testing process - Deployment process - Bug management systems The thing that does matter: - Building something successful that people want Frankly, I don't care what language you used to build it. I don't care what shoddy infrastructure supports it. I don't care what hacks you put into place to scale that infrastructure. You know why? Because y…

This is the right attitude.

If you want to do business that is how it is supposed to work. The customer won't care less how the product was developed, and if he cares, he will be defining the tools anyway.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#42

Post by foolinator »

Like it or hate it, PHP stack is easy to start coding webpages if all you know is HTML.

PHP is an easy to enter arena. Memorizing APIs is easier than Computer Science. But PHP works fine with CS concepts. But it also offers a shit ton of commands that allow for both styles to mingle (often times, not nicely).

I'm sick of "your language sucks" arguments. There's good in all of them.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#43

Post by weego »

rimantas wrote: post #9
cageface wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the wrong way to think about it. Just because people can hop on one leg across the finish line doesn't mean that's a smart way to run a race. Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP? I think not. Javascript is different because we're stuck with it for historical reasons but there are so many better choices on the back end that there is absolutely no excuse to st…

> Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen > PHP? I think not. Can you elaborate, why you think so? PHP worked OK for Facebook and Wikipedia.

This sounds very much like the new version of "I can tell it's a rails app by how it looks".

The idea that the server tier language has a direct effect on the user at the level of code quality we are discussing is naive at best and trollish at worst.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#45

Post by cageface »

weego wrote: post #43
rimantas wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen > PHP? I think not. Can you elaborate, why you think so? PHP worked OK for Facebook and Wikipedia.

This sounds very much like the new version of "I can tell it's a rails app by how it looks". The idea that the server tier language has a direct effect on the user at the level of code quality we are discussing is naive at best and trollish at worst.

Are you seriously arguing that all backend languages are essentially interchangeable?

Give competent team A six months to build something in PHP and competent team B six months to build something in any of the better options and team B will build a better product every time.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#46

Post by cageface »

ryannielsen wrote: post #28

Things that don't matter: - OS - Language - Compiler - Runtime - Editor - Testing process - Deployment process - Bug management systems The thing that does matter: - Building something successful that people want Frankly, I don't care what language you used to build it. I don't care what shoddy infrastructure supports it. I don't care what hacks you put into place to scale that infrastructure. You know why? Because y…

These are two different questions:

1. Should I care what successful product X was written in?

2. What influence does my choice of language have on the success of my product.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#47

Post by excerionsforte »

cageface wrote: post #15
tolliator wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in the world does language in which the site was made in has to do with success? They were never acquired for technology - in fact, go read about their setup on HA, it's very standard stuff. If you build a product that gets traction and solid user base with some viral aspect in step 2, you will sell - even if your app/site were made in QBasic.

This kind of careless, selfish attitude really pisses me off. If I walked into a doctor's office for an operation, saw a tray full of old rusty instruments, was told by the doctor that they were "good enough" and that I should just worry about the result then I would not only walk out of that office but also file a complaint with the hospital. If you're selling your services as a professional to clients you owe them…

Someone's being a little too serious for his own good. Every language has its quirks, pick your poison. In the end, the idea that is realized is what matters.

Also... how did you draw a relationship of PHP's quirks to rusty old instruments? Is C++ pretty much dust then?

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#48

Post by Joeboy »

tolliator wrote: post #20
cageface wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of careless, selfish attitude really pisses me off. If I walked into a doctor's office for an operation, saw a tray full of old rusty instruments, was told by the doctor that they were "good enough" and that I should just worry about the result then I would not only walk out of that office but also file a complaint with the hospital. If you're selling your services as a professional to clients you owe them…

Are you serious? PHP is not "tray full of old rusty instruments". Please give me one concrete example what is wrong with a blog running on PHP. Or a small store? How is the END result differ between say Magento or something running on Django? Could you tell the difference? No, you could not. And while the PHP version would have been up and ready, you would still try to figure out how to properly run WSGI server in sh…

> Please give me one concrete example what is wrong with a blog running on PHP. Or a small store? How is the END result differ between say Magento or something running on Django? Could you tell the difference? No, you could not.

I think I could, pretty often at least:

http://duckduckgo.com/?q=wordpress+%22hacked+by%22

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#49

Post by ErrantX »

cageface wrote: post #6
polemic wrote: post #3

Note that this is a response to: EDIT: refer https://twitter.com/#!/codinghorror/status/18957165652253491... - Jeff's 4 year old response is still valid. http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... Jeff gets it right - the language is poorly designed, but it hasn't stopped PHP powering many of the biggest most important sites on the internet today. Banging on about the language's flaws [again] is…

This is the wrong way to think about it. Just because people can hop on one leg across the finish line doesn't mean that's a smart way to run a race. Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP? I think not. Javascript is different because we're stuck with it for historical reasons but there are so many better choices on the back end that there is absolutely no excuse to st…

Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP?

They absolutely would.

Building an actual application is a hard problem; a lot harder than the kinks of individual programming languages. Whichever tools you choose it is never going to be an easy ride.

Anyone who has written, deployed or maintained a large scale application of the sort listed there knows this.

It's the step after ranting about how bad X language is.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#50

Post by ErrantX »

cageface wrote: post #45
weego wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds very much like the new version of "I can tell it's a rails app by how it looks". The idea that the server tier language has a direct effect on the user at the level of code quality we are discussing is naive at best and trollish at worst.

Are you seriously arguing that all backend languages are essentially interchangeable? Give competent team A six months to build something in PHP and competent team B six months to build something in any of the better options and team B will build a better product every time.

Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

Because I would imagine it depended a lot on the skill of the teams in question - and if evenly matched they would produce similar quality.

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