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PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

codinghorror.com

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Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#11

Post by vicobt »

paulhauggis wrote: post #2

If you showed me things like this in Ruby or Java I would go just as crazy. Yes, PHP has its issues (so do all languages). But, if you are a good developer, you can write good code. Many people writing PHP apps aren't good developers.

"Many people writing php apps are not good developers" whats your definition of a good developer. I think different tools (langs) hv their strengths and weakness. The questn we should be asking is that why did we wait so long before d "php is broken" debate. Chosin d ryt tools 4 d ryt job is one way of knwin hw good a developer is but then again, hw does one chose d ryt tools wat r d tel tale signs.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#12

Post by cageface »

rimantas wrote: post #9
cageface wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the wrong way to think about it. Just because people can hop on one leg across the finish line doesn't mean that's a smart way to run a race. Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP? I think not. Javascript is different because we're stuck with it for historical reasons but there are so many better choices on the back end that there is absolutely no excuse to st…

> Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen > PHP? I think not. Can you elaborate, why you think so? PHP worked OK for Facebook and Wikipedia.

The time you don't waste fighting with the language and coding around its deficiencies is time you can spend improving existing features and adding new ones. If you're trying to run a lean startup with only three backend people like Instagram these effects are very important. Those three engineers could have coded something similar in PHP but I'll guarantee you it wouldn't have been as good.

Facebook can afford to throw money at the problem and nobody's really trying to compete with Wikipedia so they can get away with it.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#13

Post by polemic »

cageface wrote: post #6
polemic wrote: post #3

Note that this is a response to: EDIT: refer https://twitter.com/#!/codinghorror/status/18957165652253491... - Jeff's 4 year old response is still valid. http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... Jeff gets it right - the language is poorly designed, but it hasn't stopped PHP powering many of the biggest most important sites on the internet today. Banging on about the language's flaws [again] is…

This is the wrong way to think about it. Just because people can hop on one leg across the finish line doesn't mean that's a smart way to run a race. Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP? I think not. Javascript is different because we're stuck with it for historical reasons but there are so many better choices on the back end that there is absolutely no excuse to st…

You're missing the point.

PHP works. A priori arguments from faults in the language don't explain its success. Replaying that old record doesn't add anything to What We Already Know.

Also: I didn't say that Javascript is different - I'm talking about the curmudgeons in comp.lang.js who argue that the practical benefits of using a JS library are outweighed by their flaws. This is clearly dis-proven by their popularity and demonstrable economic benefit. As for PHP, this remains true.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#14

Post by vicobt »

paulhauggis wrote: post #2

If you showed me things like this in Ruby or Java I would go just as crazy. Yes, PHP has its issues (so do all languages). But, if you are a good developer, you can write good code. Many people writing PHP apps aren't good developers.

"Many people writing php apps are not good developers" whats your definition of a good developer. I think different tools (langs) hv their strengths and weakness. The questn we should be asking is that why did we wait so long before d "php is broken" debate. Chosin d ryt tools 4 d ryt job is one way of knwin hw good a developer is but then again, hw does one chose d ryt tools wat r d tel tale signs.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#15

Post by cageface »

tolliator wrote: post #10
cageface wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the wrong way to think about it. Just because people can hop on one leg across the finish line doesn't mean that's a smart way to run a race. Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP? I think not. Javascript is different because we're stuck with it for historical reasons but there are so many better choices on the back end that there is absolutely no excuse to st…

What in the world does language in which the site was made in has to do with success? They were never acquired for technology - in fact, go read about their setup on HA, it's very standard stuff. If you build a product that gets traction and solid user base with some viral aspect in step 2, you will sell - even if your app/site were made in QBasic.

This kind of careless, selfish attitude really pisses me off. If I walked into a doctor's office for an operation, saw a tray full of old rusty instruments, was told by the doctor that they were "good enough" and that I should just worry about the result then I would not only walk out of that office but also file a complaint with the hospital.

If you're selling your services as a professional to clients you owe them the best work you can do. There are legitimate reasons to prefer Python or Ruby or Scala or whatever but if you're just too damn lazy to stop using PHP then you're essentially guilty of professional malpractice.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#16

Post by nchuhoai »

>But the converse is also true: sufficiently talented coders >can write great applications in terrible languages, too. >It's a painful lesson, but an important one.

>Why fight it? I say learn to embrace it.

I'd say life is too short to write in terrible languages. Yes, PHP was once the language of choice and now that it glorious days are beginning to set, I don't think a little PHP bashing is too inappropriate.

Speaking of PHP popularity, are there any notable startups that launched recently (<1 year) that used PHP? Given the popularity of Rails, Django, Node etc. it feels completely dead. On that side note, let me get back to my Java Server Pages assignment in college (I'm not even kidding).

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#17

Post by knieveltech »

cageface wrote: post #6
polemic wrote: post #3

Note that this is a response to: EDIT: refer https://twitter.com/#!/codinghorror/status/18957165652253491... - Jeff's 4 year old response is still valid. http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... Jeff gets it right - the language is poorly designed, but it hasn't stopped PHP powering many of the biggest most important sites on the internet today. Banging on about the language's flaws [again] is…

This is the wrong way to think about it. Just because people can hop on one leg across the finish line doesn't mean that's a smart way to run a race. Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP? I think not. Javascript is different because we're stuck with it for historical reasons but there are so many better choices on the back end that there is absolutely no excuse to st…

"there are so many better choices"

This is absolutely true, assuming you're working on a blue-sky project or some niche purpose-built app. For the rest of the web, other available languages are (currently) missing one or more of the following:

- A wide selection of CMS's to choose from

- A wide selection of CRM's to choose from

- A wide selection of development frameworks to choose from

- commodity hosting environments ready to roll with little or no server configuration required

Declaring the choice of PHP over some other back-end language negligent in all cases is misguided.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#18

Post by sanswork »

cageface wrote: post #12
rimantas wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen > PHP? I think not. Can you elaborate, why you think so? PHP worked OK for Facebook and Wikipedia.

The time you don't waste fighting with the language and coding around its deficiencies is time you can spend improving existing features and adding new ones. If you're trying to run a lean startup with only three backend people like Instagram these effects are very important. Those three engineers could have coded something similar in PHP but I'll guarantee you it wouldn't have been as good. Facebook can afford to th…

I've developed large applications in PHP for years. Currently we're using other languages at my current company for a couple of reasons. They could have coded the exact same thing in PHP and I doubt it would have taken them any longer. The language isn't great but I never found myself truly fighting it just displeased with some of the syntax.

Facebook started with PHP they weren't always the massive company they are today and managed to displace other entrenched social networks.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#19

Post by knieveltech »

cageface wrote: post #12
rimantas wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen > PHP? I think not. Can you elaborate, why you think so? PHP worked OK for Facebook and Wikipedia.

The time you don't waste fighting with the language and coding around its deficiencies is time you can spend improving existing features and adding new ones. If you're trying to run a lean startup with only three backend people like Instagram these effects are very important. Those three engineers could have coded something similar in PHP but I'll guarantee you it wouldn't have been as good. Facebook can afford to th…

Time savings? How's downloading the entire feature set for content creation, categorization,user management & authentication, and menuing in 45 seconds stack up to arsing around in a text editor setting up your file structure for a new development project?

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#20

Post by tolliator »

cageface wrote: post #15
tolliator wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in the world does language in which the site was made in has to do with success? They were never acquired for technology - in fact, go read about their setup on HA, it's very standard stuff. If you build a product that gets traction and solid user base with some viral aspect in step 2, you will sell - even if your app/site were made in QBasic.

This kind of careless, selfish attitude really pisses me off. If I walked into a doctor's office for an operation, saw a tray full of old rusty instruments, was told by the doctor that they were "good enough" and that I should just worry about the result then I would not only walk out of that office but also file a complaint with the hospital. If you're selling your services as a professional to clients you owe them…

Are you serious? PHP is not "tray full of old rusty instruments". Please give me one concrete example what is wrong with a blog running on PHP. Or a small store? How is the END result differ between say Magento or something running on Django? Could you tell the difference? No, you could not. And while the PHP version would have been up and ready, you would still try to figure out how to properly run WSGI server in shared hosting.

Good luck with your endeavors.

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