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Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

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Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#211
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked on a large scale project that was itanium based and let me tell you, the compilers / software toolchains were an absolute dumpster fire. We were planning on being between 500 and 2000 processors in our cluster. We used HP boxes and I want to say it was around 2002/2003 when this was going on. We were supposed to be a huge public showpiece client for both intel and HP. It… did not go very well. I remember the…

That's the tragedy behind it, since the whole premise on how Itanium was done was that compilers will be able to, eventually, any day now, optimize for it and then you'll see, just wait and then you'll see.. any day now!

The compilers worked just fine. Itanium was not even that particularly VLIWish, as the instruction carrier wasn't that particularly wide (up to 4 instructions)

All that Itanium was, at the end of the day, was an in-order PA-RISC/SPARC hybrid that exposed a lot of the superscalar innards to the programmer (compiler)

VLIW scheduling even back then wasn't as much of a mystery as the usenet and register flamewars implied. It really is pretty straightforward for a compiler to behave like an in-order superscalar scheduler. And since the compiler has a much global information about the instruction stream it can do much more optimizations and static ordering than a normal in-order HW superscalar scheduler alone.

Plus itanium had plenty of dynamic microarchitectural components to complement the static ordering done by the compiler and increase FU utilization.

If anything, things like predication and its adverse effect in power consumption had a much worse impact on itanium than the compilers.

What killed the itanium was just simple economics; its performance was fine (for the time, at least for itanium2). It's performance/price ratio, however, was not.

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#212
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lesson here. Intel basically wanted to get away from x86 because it was licensed to AMD (and Cyrix) due to an earlier (and essentially unlimited) licensing agreement. In the late 90s, the likes of DEC, HP and Sun ruled the server and workstation space. Intel wanted in on this space and didn't want AMD to be able to produce compatible parts so... enter EPIC [1]. The projections (as you point to) were wildly…

Alpha would have been such a better path to follow, and Intel even ended up with a license for it because of Compaq/HP's incompetence.

Itanium was being defined around the same time the 1st Alphas came to market. By the time Itanium2 came out, it matched/surpassed the contemporary AXP parts.

FWIW the alpha design teams ended up cannibalized between AMD and Intel. The original Opteron and the first generations of Core i have a ton of AXP DNA in them, from a uarch standpoint. So in a sense, Intel and AMD did continue Alpha... sort of.

However. I feel that Alpha gets over fetishized on the internet sometimes. It was a clean arch, mainly because it was a clean 64bit design from the get go. But as far as uArch, it was pretty generic. Most of the uArch themes the AXP design teams used, which a lot of people think were native inventions to Alpha, came straight from industry/academia research, and plenty of other processors implemented them as well.

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#213
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lesson here. Intel basically wanted to get away from x86 because it was licensed to AMD (and Cyrix) due to an earlier (and essentially unlimited) licensing agreement. In the late 90s, the likes of DEC, HP and Sun ruled the server and workstation space. Intel wanted in on this space and didn't want AMD to be able to produce compatible parts so... enter EPIC [1]. The projections (as you point to) were wildly…

When I read about Itanium and iAPX 432, I can't help but think that Intel _isn't good at what they do_ and just lucked into he PC market by being cheap, and then riding to coattails of the Windows monopoly. I can't wait for ARM to eat their lunch. And dinner.

Intel has some of the best architecture and design teams in the industry.

They have had failed products, no doubt.

But I don't think you understand also how insanely good at execution Intel was during the 80s and 90s.

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#214
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, people usually miss the importance of Banias and Centrino. Banias was the Israeli team asking how do we make an incredibly efficient mobile CPU and the answer was finish your work quickly and go to sleep. In order to finish quickly, you had to be fast and efficient. Someone said well what if we don't actually go to sleep? IIRCC, Core was a combination of the Banias CPU architecture, an evolution of P3, com…

I believe you’re correct: the Pentium M in the original Centrino platform that became Core Duo was a Pentium 3 derivative (for laptops). I’d forgotten that. Pentium 4 was heavily marketing driven, to win the Gigahertz war.

P4 was also, initially, process-driven.

The fab side of Intel had a huge priority in setting early architectural themes. And some of the CMOs flows in lab, in mid 90s, were showing huge speed scaling, but they had very restrictive design rules and cell libraries. But with the payout of extreme GHz scaling.

From that point of view, the P4 made sense; a narrow architecture with very deep pipelines. Where each stage used the tiny datapaths between latches/registers those libraries supported. Netburst makes sense in terms of dealing with extremely deep out of order pipelines.

However, those processes never met the scaling roadmaps. While the power consumption scaled horribly, and things like thermal, leakage and variability started to become first order limiters.

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, people usually miss the importance of Banias and Centrino. Banias was the Israeli team asking how do we make an incredibly efficient mobile CPU and the answer was finish your work quickly and go to sleep. In order to finish quickly, you had to be fast and efficient. Someone said well what if we don't actually go to sleep? IIRCC, Core was a combination of the Banias CPU architecture, an evolution of P3, com…

Isn’t Banias in Syria lol

Intel's code names for projects are usually geographical in nature and this was designed by their Israeli-based R&D team, that that tracks.

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#216

The worst thing about Itanium is that it killed DEC Alpha, high-performance MIPS and some other arches I keep forgetting about.

What killed Alpha and high performance MIPS (And eventually SPARC) was simple economics; their design costs grew faster than the revenue they generated.

I don't think many of the arm chair CPU experts really understand how expensive it is to design a high performance CPU core.

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#217
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jim Keller has stated in at least one talk that DEC went bankrupt after Windows NT on Alpha kept crashing because they'd designed the Alpha with weak memory ordering and MS wouldn't implement the necessary memory barriers. Didn't sound like Itanic played a part at all.

Itanic played part after Compaq buyout, where Compaq decided to bank all on Itanium sight unseen of actual usable parts, IIRC. The end result was that they had to restart development of EV7 then restart its production again, because many, many ex-DEC customers didn't want to move to Itanium (customers running Tru64 mostly moved to Linux on amd64 or occasionally to other RISC vendors instead of dealing with HP-UX, whe…

Alpha was on life support by the time Compaq bought DEC. AXP was literally one of the things that basically killed DEC.

By the time HP bought Compaq, AXP was on legacy mode. Plus Itanium was as much of an HP architecture as it was intel's, so it made no sense for HP to develop AXP further.

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#218
post #2

It's funny thinking back to the hype cycle of Itanium back in the heady days where performance was doubling every year, desktop was king and this was the future . Turns out it was more like IBM's MCA / PS2 rather than the future. Compatibility and ubiquity wins. As nearly always.

As someone working in that space at that time, IA64 was still losing to Sparc64 the entire time. We would do big boxes on Solaris and replace older Sun boxes with ia32 Pentium Pros. There wasn't really ever a point at which we thought "hm, RISC isn't working for us, we need VLIW" ...and we were an HP shop!!!

The irony being that Itanium is basically a SPARC64 on steroids; both wide, both used huge register windows, and both were in order. the only difference being that Itanium exposed a lot of the superscalar bits to the programmer. I still have no clue why an HP shop would be using Solaris boxes, alas...

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#219
post #4
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2009 summary https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2339629,00.asp > The failure of this chip to do anything more than exist as a niche processor sealed the fate of Intel—and perhaps the entire industry, since from 1997 to 2001 everyone waited for the messiah of chips to take us all to the next level. > It did that all right. It took us to the next level. But we didn't know that the next level was below us, not above.…

This piece sounds like a lot of misrepresentation and exaggeration.

It is a great representation of the average article written about Itanium. I think the register made most of its revenue from articles about Itanium, where the authors had no clue about what they were talking about.

Not defending Itanium. But the average article on computer architecture has been garbage for decades now, it's fascinating.

Re: Intel Itanium IA-64 Support Removed with the Linux 6.7 Kernel

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my limited understanding two factors contributed significantly to Alpha failing. Business-wise, DEC and Ken Olesen were stuck in an old minicomputer mentality and wasn't sufficiently able or willing to "let it loose" and let it take over the market with DEC as the CPU supplier. Technically, Alpha development was taking longer and longer and the schedule slips got worse and worse.

Yeah, DEC needed to scale the Alpha down, even below PCs. A console deal could have given it a few more years and helped with chip economics.

That makes no sense. Alpha was horrible in terms of power consumption.
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