Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#181

Post by kergonath » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 10:02 AM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #168

kergonath wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over an axle. Cars are not getting more axles, even SUVs, so this is a constant multiplicative factor. I would be happy with a tax that scales as the fourth power of the mass, no problem. That would be actually quite dissuasive very quickly. Though even a linear scaling would be an improvement over the current situation. > Most fuel consumption is about overcoming dr…

What do you mean by constant multiplicative factor’. Are you saying that cars are perfectly balanced between front and back axels (surely a reasonable thing to want for tyre wearing if nothing else). The point about the scaling is that it is not linear: if you double the weight over an axle, you get 16 times the wear but perhaps 1.5-2x the fuel consumption. For this reason I dispute that fuel duty effectively taxes t…

> What do you mean by constant multiplicative factor’. Are you saying that cars are perfectly balanced between front and back axels (surely a reasonable thing to want for tyre wearing if nothing else).

Right. An implicit assumption was that the weight repartition does not change much, i.e. that if 2/3 of the weight is supported by the front axle, that ratio would be similar for a hatchback and a SUV. This does not seem completely unrealistic when comparing ICEs with other ICEs or EVs with other EVs (though EVs will have a very different weight repartition compared to ICEs due to the way batteries and motors are integrated).

With this in mind, the front axle bears 2/3 * m_1 for a sedan of mass m_1 and 2/3 * m_2 for a SUV of mass m_2. So the effective weight (as seen considering only one axle) is just a linear function of the actual weight. It changes the magnitude, but it does not change the scaling.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#182

Post by kergonath » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 10:05 AM UTC

michpoch wrote: post #137

kergonath wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that weight difference results in a noticeable tax difference, then lorries will be virtually priced off the road due to the tax. That’s a red herring. Lorries don’t have to be taxed the same way as cars, and actually most of the time are not.

They absolutely are taxed much heavier than most cars. Truck are charged on most highways in European Union, I expect UK has similar system. They pay per-km driven.

I am addressing the “but higher taxes will put companies out of business because lorries” straw man that appears a couple of times in the discussion. Taxes for family cars and for professional vehicles are effectively decoupled and can be adjusted independently.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#183

Post by kergonath » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 10:10 AM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #145

kergonath wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you live in the country you probably need a 4x4 or a pickup truck, depending also on the type of work that you do. There already are exemptions and tax credits for professional equipment, right? It’s nothing that has not been solved already.

There are no exemptions for road tax, it is just deductable against income tax, which means you get some fraction of it back depending on your tax rate. Unfortunately for me I am commuting to a job through the countryside, and therefore I can't deduct anything.

You’re right, people commuting with large cars would see the larger costs. The thing is, we need to provide less-polluting alternatives to commuting by cars and also disincentivise using large and heavy cars for daily trips. People commuting alone in a large car are an absurdity.

These alternatives could be better public transport, tax credit for small vehicles or car sharing, incentives for remote work as much as possible, none of which are completely outlandish.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#184

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 10:38 AM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #127

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that weight difference results in a noticeable tax difference, then lorries will be virtually priced off the road due to the tax. Realistically, the tax would have to be affordable for heaviest vehicles which would make the tax difference between 1.5 to 2 tons negligible. Maybe one way round it is to have tax bands for heavy commercial vehicles and weight-based tax for cars and SUVs. Edit: thought I'd try to work…

> If that weight difference results in a noticeable tax difference, then lorries will be virtually priced off the road due to the tax. That’s a red herring. Lorries don’t have to be taxed the same way as cars, and actually most of the time are not.

> That’s a red herring. Lorries don’t have to be taxed the same way as cars, and actually most of the time are not.

Yes, but I can see it being unpopular to introduce a "road repair" tax that is justified based on drivers paying for the damage that they cause to roads and then not apply the same rules to the vehicles that cause the majority of the damage.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#185

Post by bdavbdav » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 10:46 AM UTC

therealdrag0 wrote: post #173

bdavbdav wrote: post #3

I’m all for fewer people driving them (most are just lifted versions of normal cars now, but more uncomfortable and inefficient), but I’m very sure messing essential safety features (correctly pressurised tyres) is not how you get that point t across.

More uncomfortable? Why do you think people buy them?

What SUV is more comfortable than its wagon or saloon equivalent? I’d definitely rather be sat in a 5 series than an X5.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#186

Post by bdavbdav » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 10:48 AM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #113

yodelshady wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you argue that you'd be a liar. They just don't. They all get about 200 miles real world, my (£10,000 cheaper !) hatchback, petrol with a 55 L tank and much more interior space than any of those, can push 400. Why say things that aren't true? People aren't going to be fooled.

> can push 400. That is to say, not 400? Why say things that aren't true? People aren't going to be fooled.

How come not true? My 3L A6 Quattro did more than 400mls on a tank of you were careful. That’s normal territory for European cars.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#187

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 11:45 AM UTC

azherebtsov wrote: post #66

blitzar wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the equivalent thought process as "everyone making my salary + £1 or more gets paid way too much money and should be taxed at 100%"

What car would you recommend to a family of five? I have 2 kids and when we go for a trip the my Citroen c4 is full. Would I have one more kid it’s no way we can fit into this car, despite it has 5 seats. Should we stop thinking about road trips and consider only plane/train/bus? Or should we consider only van/caravan? I support the argument that unnecessary consumption should be penalised somehow, but I do not suppo…

[deleted]

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#188

Post by jimnotgym » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 1:23 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #183

jimnotgym wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no exemptions for road tax, it is just deductable against income tax, which means you get some fraction of it back depending on your tax rate. Unfortunately for me I am commuting to a job through the countryside, and therefore I can't deduct anything.

You’re right, people commuting with large cars would see the larger costs. The thing is, we need to provide less-polluting alternatives to commuting by cars and also disincentivise using large and heavy cars for daily trips. People commuting alone in a large car are an absurdity. These alternatives could be better public transport, tax credit for small vehicles or car sharing, incentives for remote work as much as po…

How about a tax credit for having a second smaller car if you already have an SUV?

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#189

Post by WentFullRetard » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

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Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#190

Post by nottheengineer » Mon, Nov 06, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

benj111 wrote: post #121

nottheengineer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing those things and knowing the person bought an objectively worse version of a decent car causes me pain every single time. But the only thing we can do about that is educate people.

Well they've stopped making the fiesta now, so there isn't a car version to actually buy.

That's sad, the fiesta is a fun car to drive. Also very economical, my diesel one uses 4.5l/100km consistently without paying much attention to it.

That bring me to another point: Fuel economy ratings. My car is rated at 3.3l of average consumption. That's possible when hypermiling at night, but BS when considering traffic.

I reckon SUVs are even worse than my 50% increase over the rating because their weight makes engine braking less effective in traffic and aerodynamics tend to be less of a problem at the hypermiling speeds they do during the tests than at real world speeds.