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Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

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Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#201

Post by kodapoda »

kristopolous wrote: post #196
kodapoda wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can go out to hundreds of bars in Berlin without any door policy whatsoever. Legendary bars, cool bars, gay bars, etc. It's not like the whole of Berlin is segregated. But this approach just wouldn't benefit some popular dance clubs. Without a solid door policy clubs would be stuffed with people who come there for wrong reasons. To pick up girls, to get drunk, to visit an attraction for the sake of a visit (not b…

So your argument is that it's a popular tourist attraction so instead of capitalizing on it by say opening a second, moving to a bigger space, having more events, selling tickets in advance or charging higher prices they instead openly and famously discriminate based on physical appearance? In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong bu…

I am reminded that we are on a tech forum :) Do they need to capitalize, scale, open franchise clubs all over the world? Techno clubs are not about that at their best.

Door policy is discrimination only in the sense that the very few people at the door have to make a swift judgment on whether your group will fit in. Can this be upsetting? Sure!

> In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first.

By this logic liquor stores in the US also discriminate based on person's nationality since they check the ID.

KitKatClub has a strict dress code policy for their sex-oriented events.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#202

Post by kristopolous »

kodapoda wrote: post #201
kristopolous wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument is that it's a popular tourist attraction so instead of capitalizing on it by say opening a second, moving to a bigger space, having more events, selling tickets in advance or charging higher prices they instead openly and famously discriminate based on physical appearance? In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and nationality first. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong bu…

I am reminded that we are on a tech forum :) Do they need to capitalize, scale, open franchise clubs all over the world? Techno clubs are not about that at their best. Door policy is discrimination only in the sense that the very few people at the door have to make a swift judgment on whether your group will fit in. Can this be upsetting? Sure! > In Germany. Let me guess, they look at your ID to check your name and n…

Kitkatklub dress code is wacky. They're insanely serious about it but it's easy to conform to. It's a costume party.

As to the other point, you can separate the process to avoid the kind of blanket discrimination I think we can all agree is unethical. I bet they don't make the slightest effort. It's probably one guy that checks your ID and says yes/no and one guy that takes money. It could be 3 instead of 2 to avoid, just to be crazy, saying no to all the Jewish names, but it's not.

Next time I'm in Berlin, I'll try to remember to take a clicker with me and stand outside the place. I bet you'll start to notice a few interesting patterns that America has quite a few laws against. I've only heard them to be extremely proud of their bias so I'd be surprised if you didn't start seeing just classic discrimination because that's what humans appear to naturally do unless they work really really hard at it or have some structures to prevent it.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#203

Post by ahartmetz »

kodapoda wrote: post #198
ahartmetz wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an exclusive techno club considered by many to be the best in the world. Being exclusive is really against the ethos of techno in Berlin. The "exclusivity" at the door is usually about achieving a fun mix of people and keeping out the ones who cannot behave. As an occasional clubber in Berlin, these "best" things are ridiculous. The "best" kebab place with the long queue is nothing special at all, and Berghain…

I don't mean "exclusive" as in a "VIP club" a-la some Miami venues. Exclusive meaning really hard to get into.

Yeah, I understood after reading your other comments.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#204

Post by jpfr »

pdntspa wrote: post #176
jliptzin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, 3 hour lines, and then they obnoxiously don’t let you in anyway, for no obvious reason. Not shedding any tears here.

The most likely reason is that you give off tourist vibes. My Berliner friend told me as such when I came to visit, we hit up some thrift shops so I could get some local threads and 'blend in' In fact, when I got in one club a very cute german girl tried to talk to me on the dancefloor. But I didn't speak any German and she got angry, shouting "aaauuggh!! tourists!!!" Also, for the clubs that forbid alcohol (hard dru…

Well, you can also be a "tourist" as a German visiting Berlin. And be treated as such.

I think speaking English in itself was never a problem to get in. But of course the tourist vibes get stronger if the person doesn't know the "definition of cool" that is expected and appreciated in that particular club.

Take this example [1] of a tourist they probably let in by accident and regretted it. :)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy9GregPIA4

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#205

Post by flkenosad »

pdntspa wrote: post #176
jliptzin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, 3 hour lines, and then they obnoxiously don’t let you in anyway, for no obvious reason. Not shedding any tears here.

The most likely reason is that you give off tourist vibes. My Berliner friend told me as such when I came to visit, we hit up some thrift shops so I could get some local threads and 'blend in' In fact, when I got in one club a very cute german girl tried to talk to me on the dancefloor. But I didn't speak any German and she got angry, shouting "aaauuggh!! tourists!!!" Also, for the clubs that forbid alcohol (hard dru…

This checks out for 13 years ago. Not sure it's the same today.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#206

Post by flkenosad »

danielfoster wrote: post #10

I’m not sure what sort of decline the article is referring to. There’s not a single reference to revenues or guest count for any club in Berlin, nor mention of any specific club in danger of closing due to lack of patronage. These clubs were great while the city was struggling, but now that it’s not, I can see why people don’t wish to tolerate the negative externalities associated with them. Hopefully most clubs can…

Hard numbers are always going to lag behind opinion.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#207

Post by kodapoda »

bin_bash wrote: post #160
kodapoda wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be true for very few very selective clubs like Berghain, certainly not true for all Berlin clubs. In the case of Berghain, it obviously doesn't suffer from losing customers—your comment confirms this point.

The article is literally about Berghain.

I don't fully follow the anecdata in this article. They mention that Berghain had to raise its cover charge to "deal with rising costs" (understandable, considering the inflation), not that they have fewer patrons.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#208

Post by flkenosad »

xfeeefeee wrote: post #115
RamblingCTO wrote: post #2

You also have tik tok ravers. A generation which built their own culture in isolation in the pandemic now flooding the dance floors not knowing anything about techno culture. For me it's a big part of not wanting to go anywhere anymore. Before, your outfit didn't matter, phones, photos and videos were discouraged. Nowadays these kids dress to impress and point there phones everywhere. They consume the techno culture…

I've been going to raves and festivals since the 90s and the current culture is great! I mean yeah it's different but still pretty much the same. Reading some of the anecdotes here I can't help but think that people are glossing over the same issues in the past. And yeah it is true that DJs have become a centerpiece rather than someone behind the scenes... but the experience itself has evolved with amazing visual per…

Yeah but like we used to come for the sound, not a light show.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#209

Post by 55555 »

pdntspa wrote: post #176
jliptzin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, 3 hour lines, and then they obnoxiously don’t let you in anyway, for no obvious reason. Not shedding any tears here.

The most likely reason is that you give off tourist vibes. My Berliner friend told me as such when I came to visit, we hit up some thrift shops so I could get some local threads and 'blend in' In fact, when I got in one club a very cute german girl tried to talk to me on the dancefloor. But I didn't speak any German and she got angry, shouting "aaauuggh!! tourists!!!" Also, for the clubs that forbid alcohol (hard dru…

There are clubs that forbid alcohol? That’s wild.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#210

Post by kristopolous »

tern wrote: post #194
kristopolous wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: Hacker News, CDMX EBM scene, goth scene, LA underground art scene, SF renegade rave scene, Latin bars, gay clubs like the EndUp, which have been open and welcoming since 1971, gay black scene, free software movement, gay Asian scene in any city, bear bars, salsa clubs, martial arts clubs, drag bars, anime scene, furry scene, hiking groups, Trekkies, adventurer clubs, punk scene, bicycle riders groups, a…

Ultimately, I agree, and have spent a lot more time in many of these scenes than at Berghain. However, all of them are fairly self-selecting in different ways that I think are difficult or impossible to achieve in a long-running, ostensibly "for everyone" institution like a techno club.

I understand you feel that way but materially it's incorrect.

You can be exclusive for exclusive-sake and you'll attract the dolce & gabana crowd and maybe that's what they want - people who will spend $500 on alcohol.

But as far as techno I've met all the Belleville 3, two of them twice and each time it's been at tiny spots with like $0-$5 cover.

I've even been to warehouse parties with producers big enough to have Wikipedia pages that are just honor systems where you promise to venmo the promoter and there is no door guy. Highschool kids could just walk in doing hard drugs and to be honest they probably did.

But then again, there's certainly pop techno and non-pop techno. Tiestos YouTube has like 3.7 billion views. That's a different problem than say Legowelt with 200k.

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