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Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

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Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was implying that you did not specify who is doing this military intervention that you see as a solution. What are their values, who decides the rules that the rest of the world will have to follow, with what authority, and who (and how) will the policing be done. Like nuclear non-proliferation treaties or various international bans on bioweapons, but more so. The idea is that humanity is racing full steam ahead…

I see. I'm perhaps leaning skeptical most of the time, but it's hard to see how an international consensus can be reached on a topic that does not have the in-your-face type danger & fear that nuclear & bioweapons do. (It's why I'm also pessimistic on other global consensus policies - like effective climate change action.) I would be happy to be wrong on both counts though.

It gets me wondering whether some AGI Hiroshima scenario would be possible. Scare people's pants off, yes. Collapse, no.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seize power via regulatory capture Not even a little bit. "Stop" is not regulatory capture. Some large AI companies are attempting to twist "stop" into "be careful, as only we can". The actual way to stop the existential risk is to stop. https://twitter.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1719777049576128542 > the push to close off AI with farcical licensing and reporting requirements "Stop" is not "licensing and reporting requ…

No. Sorry, but this is wrong and Yudkowsky is both naïve and mostly exists in the domain of fan fiction. There are way way way too many issues that are addressed with a hand-wave around scenarios like “AI developing super intelligence in secret and spreading itself around decentralized computers while getting forever smarter by reading the internet.” Too many of his arguments depend on stealth for systems that take u…

Are you saying that the governments/agencies are incapable of hiding any big infra? That's a novel take.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#863

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that you don't have to explicitly make a system self-interested, but that self-preservation follows as an implied subgoal of almost any goal. Whatever it is your system actually 'wants', it can't make it happen if it doesn't exist. The obvious rejoinder is 'just make the system want to do what you want it to do', which does fix this problem! But the biggest problem is that we don't know how to do this…

I think I understand the general premise, just not how it would follow specifically. Say you have an AI that is setup as an agent that can give tasks to members of a company to maximise company performance measured by financials and employee wellbeing. To accomplish this goal, the AI develops the instrumental goal of not being deactivated. If your AI is only allowed to give tasks to employees, how would this instrume…

> If your AI is only allowed to give tasks to employees

It can tell an employee to send an email, or to meet someone, or to transfer funds. That's a clear way to lobby the legislature, and in effect influence some new laws.

That took me 3 minutes of thinking, and I'm not a superhuman.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The box experiment was just an example that people could be persuaded to let it out even if the AI was initially constrained. Basically that people are imperfectly secure. It’s also not that important given it’s unlikely to be put in a box in the first place. Your latter point about AGI exploring the universe makes a lot of implicit assumptions about its reasoning. The point of the paperclip maximizer example and the…

> Your latter point about AGI exploring the universe makes a lot of implicit assumptions about its reasoning. Absolutely, that's actually kind of my point... Anyone who tries to predict how some AGI will behave will be making a lot of implicit assumptions about how that AGI will see the world. This is why I said: > Personally, I think the way these people talk about what a potential AGI would do reveals a lot about m…

It’d be a longer conversation that’s hard to do via HN comments, but I think the main divide is I get the impression you’re giving the AGI implicit human-like reasoning, but the idea behind the orthogonality thesis or alignment generally is that you don’t get these things for free.

It’s not that humans hate ants or apes, it’s that we pursue goals without thinking too hard about them. A house being built may destroy an ant hill but it’s not because we hate ants.

The core argument is it’s not only possible to have an intelligence that’s a lot more capable than us but with dumb goals because of our failure to align it, but that that’s the default outcome. There is no “reasoning with it” because it’s not a human like intelligence, it has a goal it’s focused on (paperclips) and if it’s a lot smarter than us then that’s game over.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#865

I think Yann is probably wrong. He refuses to engage earnestly with the “doomer” arguments. The same type of motivated reasoning could also be attributed to himself and Meta’s financial goals - it’s not a persuasive framing. The attempts I’ve seen from him to discuss the issue that aren’t just name calling are things like saying he knows smart people and they aren’t president - or even that his cat is pretty smart an…

The "doomer" arguments can be dismissed relatively easily by one logical consideration. In each country there is one group far more dangerous than any other. This group tends to have 'income' in the billions to hundreds of billions of dollars. And this money is exclusively directed towards finding new ways to kill people, destroy governments, and generally enable one country to forcibly impose their will on others, w…

One group per country is less competition than n groups per country. Less competition means slower progress.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#866
post #844
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how many of them have been invited to the White House to share their concerns? https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... I don't see any of their names in this meeting's attendees, for example. Sam Altman's there, Satya Nadella's there, Sundar Pichai's there... No Yoshua Bengio, though. What the person you replied to is saying is that commercial developers of AI have a significant financial…

You're confusing "that one photo of three ceos at the whitehouse" with "all government solicitation of expert opinion on AI". It's correct that the meeting you're thinking of was industry-heavy, but the process in general has had a lot of academic input from, e.g Marcus, Tegmark, etc. See the recent summit in the UK, etc.

.. academic-heavy position letters have been ignored before

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I understand the general premise, just not how it would follow specifically. Say you have an AI that is setup as an agent that can give tasks to members of a company to maximise company performance measured by financials and employee wellbeing. To accomplish this goal, the AI develops the instrumental goal of not being deactivated. If your AI is only allowed to give tasks to employees, how would this instrume…

> If your AI is only allowed to give tasks to employees It can tell an employee to send an email, or to meet someone, or to transfer funds. That's a clear way to lobby the legislature, and in effect influence some new laws. That took me 3 minutes of thinking, and I'm not a superhuman.

I wouldn’t class that as malicious. Companies do the exact same thing without AI. I’m trying to tease out what the diff is between a human manager who gives out tasks, and the AI. And how this diff could result in risks.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#868

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I understand the general premise, just not how it would follow specifically. Say you have an AI that is setup as an agent that can give tasks to members of a company to maximise company performance measured by financials and employee wellbeing. To accomplish this goal, the AI develops the instrumental goal of not being deactivated. If your AI is only allowed to give tasks to employees, how would this instrume…

Note that an AI system being put in a situation intended to maximize some metric like company finances is not the same as that AI system directly or ultimately optimizing on those metrics, any more than the goal of a random McDonalds worker is necessarily to make McDonalds wealthier. There's agreement here only as long as whatever inner optimizer that AI system is using finds the situation it's in is most concords wi…

I like your example of prokaryotic microbes because I think it points to the difference in out points of view.

Microbes evolved to increase their own chances of reproduction, they are inherently autopoietic. The AI risk arguments are usually predicated on AI systems developing similar reproductive mechanisms but I don’t see why this would be the case. Sure, an AI creator may design their AI to evolve to become more performant at their given task. But why would someone build an AI that evolves to become more performant at reproducing itself and not it’s builder?

As an example, think of evolutionary algorithms. These are designed to evolve a solution to a problem. Instances of this solution reproduce but these reproductions are guided by the design of the algorithm itself and so would not reproduce their parent algorithm. What is different about machine learning based AI? Why would ML AI always lead to autopoietic behaviour?

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that an AI system being put in a situation intended to maximize some metric like company finances is not the same as that AI system directly or ultimately optimizing on those metrics, any more than the goal of a random McDonalds worker is necessarily to make McDonalds wealthier. There's agreement here only as long as whatever inner optimizer that AI system is using finds the situation it's in is most concords wi…

I like your example of prokaryotic microbes because I think it points to the difference in out points of view. Microbes evolved to increase their own chances of reproduction, they are inherently autopoietic. The AI risk arguments are usually predicated on AI systems developing similar reproductive mechanisms but I don’t see why this would be the case. Sure, an AI creator may design their AI to evolve to become more p…

> But why would someone build an AI that evolves to become more performant at reproducing itself and not it’s builder?

Because people are not building AIs that meaningly encode any of their creators' preferences whatsoever. They are building AIs that are in a very broad sense capable at tasks they've been trained on to increasingly general degrees, and then on top of this they have a bunch of finagling where they try to point it somewhat vaguely in the direction of increasing usefulness.

When you have a system that has capabilities rivalling humans, as well as the general ability to apply its skills to broad ranges of tasks, then the ability for this system to do things like self-replicate, or make plans that involve mundane deceit, or perform smart-human levels of hacking already exist. To the extent that the system isn't directly optimizing for what the people who made it wanted it to, the relevant question isn't why would someone design it to do that?, but what are the attractor states for this sort of system?

You say microbes "evolved to increase their own chances of reproduction", but this isn't true. There is no intent there. Microbes did physics. They only evolved to increase their own chances of reproduction in the sense that the random changes you get by running physics on microbes produces both adaptive and maladaptive changes, and it's the adaptive changes stick around.

The same thing applies to AIs' preferences, except that while it's very hard for a bunch of atoms to assemble into something that successfully optimizes towards any non-nihilistic result, it's very easy for a sufficiently smart to do that, and instrumental convergence means almost all of those are incidentally very bad.

To put this in concrete terms, if the abstract arguments aren't helping, consider a system that was trained to be generally capable, and then fine-tuned towards polite instruction following. Beyond a level of capability, the following scenario becomes plausible:

Human: what's a command that let's me see a live overview of activity on our compute cluster?

AI system:

I'm not saying this is, like, the most plausible xrisk scenario, I'm just pointing out that given extremely plausible priors, like having an AI system that just wants to give reasonable answers to reasonable questions, but is also smart enough to quickly write code to use its own API, and also creative enough to recognize when that's the easiest and most effective way to answer a question, you already get a level of bootstrapping.

Note that none of the above even required considering:

* a sharp left turn or other specific misalignments,

* the AI going weirdly out of distribution,

* superhuman creative strategies or manipulation,

* malicious actors, terrorists, enemy states, etc., or

* people intentionally getting the system to bootstrap.

Those are all very real problems, but you don't have to invoke them to notice that you just end up, by default, in a very dangerous place just by following mundane logic on what's ultimately an extremely milquetoast vision of AI.

You might argue, fairly, that the situation above is a pretty weak form of bootstrapping, but so were the first proto-life chemicals, and the same sort of logic I'm using lets you just continue walking down the chain. Let's say you have such a system tuned to follow instruction and that's instantiated as above, aka. running in a loop with the instructions to turn certain data dumps into live reports about system activity. Let's say one component fails, or is reporting insufficient information, or was called wrong, or one piece of the loop has a high failure rate. Surely a system that has the intellectual faculties that you or I do, and that knows from its inputs that it has the ability to call itself in a loop, should also be able to deduce that the most effective way to follow the instructions it has been given is to fix those issues, repair faulty components, proactively add error handling, or even report information up the chain, or maybe there's a runaway process that needs to be culled to ensure API throttling doesn't affect reporting latency.

And suddenly, not because anyone in the chain designed it to happen, but just because it's an attractor state you get by having sufficiently capable systems, you don't just have a natural organism, but one that self heals, too, and that selection pressure will continue to exist as time goes on.

The more your model of AGI looks like far-superintelligence, the more this looks like 'everyone falls over and dies', and the more your model looks like amnesiac-humans-in-boxes, the more this looks like natural competitive organisms that fill a fairly distinct biological niche that's initially dependent on human labor. I personally don't buy that AI progress will stop at the amnesiac human level, but it is a helpful frame because it's basically the minimum viable assumption.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your AI is only allowed to give tasks to employees It can tell an employee to send an email, or to meet someone, or to transfer funds. That's a clear way to lobby the legislature, and in effect influence some new laws. That took me 3 minutes of thinking, and I'm not a superhuman.

I wouldn’t class that as malicious. Companies do the exact same thing without AI. I’m trying to tease out what the diff is between a human manager who gives out tasks, and the AI. And how this diff could result in risks.

Ah, I see. You are assuming that there's an universal growth rate limit.

A diff between a human manager and their human parent generation cannot be on the order of diff between a tortoise and a chimp. AI is not constrained by biological evolution.

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