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Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

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681–690 of 873 posts

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#681

The way incumbents are attempting to seize power via regulatory capture, using "X-Risk" and fantastical claims of sudden human extinction is maybe one of the most cynical ploys in the history of tech so far. Open source is one of our greatest gifts, and the push to close off AI with farcical licensing and reporting requirements (which will undoubtedly become more strict) is absurd. The laws we have already cover male…

> seize power via regulatory capture Not even a little bit. "Stop" is not regulatory capture. Some large AI companies are attempting to twist "stop" into "be careful, as only we can". The actual way to stop the existential risk is to stop. https://twitter.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1719777049576128542 > the push to close off AI with farcical licensing and reporting requirements "Stop" is not "licensing and reporting requ…

No. Sorry, but this is wrong and Yudkowsky is both naïve and mostly exists in the domain of fan fiction.

There are way way way too many issues that are addressed with a hand-wave around scenarios like “AI developing super intelligence in secret and spreading itself around decentralized computers while getting forever smarter by reading the internet.”

Too many of his arguments depend on stealth for systems that take up datacenters and need whole-city-block scales of power to operate. Physically, it’s just not possible to move these things.

Economically, it wouldn’t be either close to plausible either. Power is expensive and it is the single most monitored element in every datacenter. There is nothing large that happens in a datacenter that is not monitored. There is nothing that is going to train on meaningful datasets in secret.

“What about as technology increases and we get more efficient at computing?”

We use more power for computing every year, not less. Yes, we get more efficient, but we don’t get less energy intensive. We don’t substitute computing capacity. We add more. The same old servers are still there contributing to the compute. Google has data centers filled with old shit. That’s why the standard core in GCP is 2 GHz. Sometimes, your project gets put on a box from 2010, other times, it gets put on a box from 2023. That process is abstracted so you can’t tell the difference.

TLDR: Yudkowsky’s arguments are merely fan fiction. People don’t understand ML systems so they imagine an end state without understanding how to get there. These are the same people who imagine Light Speed Steam Trains.

“We need faster rail service, so let’s just keep adding steam to our steam trains and accelerate to the speed of light.”

That’s exactly what these AI Doom arguments sound like to people in the field. Your AI Doom scenario, although it might be very imaginative, is a Light Speed Steam Train. It falls apart the moment you try to trace a path from today to doom.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#682
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously. Just a couple of months back he was duped by a fake story about an airforce AI deciding to kill it’s operators in a simulation. It turned out the whole thing was thought experiment. Asking Yudkowsky what we should do about AI is like asking Green Peace what we should do about nuclear power.

> Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously. Its a perfect thing for rich, extremely privileged people to grab onto as a cause to present thenselves as (and maybe even feel like they are, depending on their capacity for self-delusion) “doing something for humanity” while continuing to ignore the substantive material condition of, as a first order approximation, everyone in the world,…

I lost total interest in every “Stop” argument when Elon Musk started a company to develop AGI during the pause that he signed on to and promoted. Yann LeCunn said that this was just an attempt to seize market share among the big companies and he couldn’t have been more right.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the two sides have such different perspectives. Some are optimistic builders and see only opportunity. Others are "safety oriented engineers" whose job and mindset is to build guarantees into systems, or secure countries from external dangers. The latter has a very hard time with the lack of guarantees with a system that is only ever going to increase in capability. Choose any limit. Any. AI will be smart but…

I agree with your counterpoint: the best artificially intelligent super agent wakes up with zero desire to eliminate humanity. On the other hand, we will breed such systems to be cooperative and constructive. This whole notion that AI is going to destroy the economy (or even humanity!) is ridiculous. Even if malicious humans create malicious AI, it'll be fought by the good guys with their AI. Business as usual, excep…

Those are beliefs, not bases for guarantee. You need to engineer in the guarantee and the only people beginning to do that are the ones being accused of believing ridiculous things. Intuition from previous events isn’t useful because those wars were fought at the level of intelligence that we have intuition for.

Covid was also ridiculous. People had no intuition for the level of growth. That’s what the book the black swan is all about. Some things don’t fit into our intuition, or imagination.

We see no aliens. Why did the AI not take them to the stars? Just one of them.

On wars and AI. The ones trying to protect us would have a harder job than those trying to kill us. The gloves would be off for the latter. It’s much easier to break things than keep them safe.

I can conceive of a good outcome but it’s not going to emerge from hopes and good wishes. There are definitely dangers and more people need to engage with them rather than belittle them.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's actually suggested it may happen within 10 years. Which makes it hard to take him seriously in general. (I do personally take his overall concerns seriously, but I don't trust his timeline predictions at all, and many of his other statements.)

Can anyone enumerate what exactly your concerns are cause I don't get it. AI I'd a great spell checker, a REALLY good spell checker, and people are losing their minds over it, I don't get it.

A lot of very long responses already that are missing the point IMO; the answer to your question is that a really good spell checker might be the last missing piece we needed to build larger systems that display autonomous and intelligent behavior on roughly human levels.

The chat web app is fun, but people shouldn’t be worried about that at all - people should be worried about a hierarchy of 100,000 chat web apps using each other to, idk, socially engineer their way into nuclear missile codes or something —- pick your favorite doomsday ;).

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#685
post #599
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China sure, to a degree (though they also make a lot of the phones and therefore just get shipped tons of chips), but wasn't Russia so short they stole washing machines for the chips? Or was that just war propaganda?

My recollection is that Russian troops/mercenaries/gunmen/whatever stole washing machines and dishwashers, but it was (presumably) just for regular theft/looting/pillagine purposes. Separately, during the pandemic, various companies bought various products, including washing machines, to extract the chips within, because the chips were the supply chain bottleneck, so it made economic sense to purchase them at even 10…

Yeap my recollection is that the Russian troops were stealing the white goods to ship home for their families.

They even stole tractors etc, https://www.itworldcanada.com/post/tractors-stolen-in-ukrain...

Washing machines etc could be on the sanctions list because they contain dual use chips, making them even more expensive to buy in Russia, but the troops are from regions where even the pre-war prices were prohitative.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I've heard plenty of discussion of positive scenarios as well, including post-scarcity. If you just look for a list of all the current AI tools and startups that are being built, you can get a pretty good sense of the potential across almost every economic/industrial sphere. Of course, many of these won't work out, but some will and it can give you an idea of what some of the specific benefits could be in the nex…

> I've heard plenty of discussion of positive scenarios as well, including post-scarcity. Everyone has an opinion, but who are the experts (in the subject matter, not some other thing) discussing it?

Check out Dwarkesh Patel’s podcast.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard plenty of discussion of positive scenarios as well, including post-scarcity. Everyone has an opinion, but who are the experts (in the subject matter, not some other thing) discussing it?

Check out Dwarkesh Patel’s podcast.

What makes him an expert in the subject matter? A cursory glance suggests that his background is in CS, not anything related to social or humanitarian issues.

It is not completely impossible for someone to have expertise in more than one thing, but it is unusual as there is only so much time in the day and building expertise takes a lot of time.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#688
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously. Just a couple of months back he was duped by a fake story about an airforce AI deciding to kill it’s operators in a simulation. It turned out the whole thing was thought experiment. Asking Yudkowsky what we should do about AI is like asking Green Peace what we should do about nuclear power.

> Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously. Its a perfect thing for rich, extremely privileged people to grab onto as a cause to present thenselves as (and maybe even feel like they are, depending on their capacity for self-delusion) “doing something for humanity” while continuing to ignore the substantive material condition of, as a first order approximation, everyone in the world,…

[flagged]

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously. Because he identified the potential risk of superhuman AI 20 years before almost everyone else. Sure, science fiction also identified that risk (as people here seem eager to point out), but he identified it as an actual real-world risk and has been trying to take real-world action on it for 20 years. No matter what else you think about him…

But it’s not a real world risk. Arguably, it’s even less of a real world risk because it’s a common sci-fi trope. The whole concept is farcical.

>Arguably, it’s even less of a real world risk because it’s a common sci-fi trope.

It would be nice if the world worked that way. Then we could diminish any risk just by writing a lot of scifi about it :)

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#690
post #384

I need to resist all this regulatory resistance here, spoken amongst tech people. No, Yann. I am FULLY in support of drastic measures to mitigate and control AI research for the time being. I have no vested stake in any of the companies. I lived for a year in a building that hosted several AI events per week. I'm not ignorant This is the only territory where humanity is mounting a conversation about a REAL response t…

The issue is not that caution is warranted or not, it's that it's cynically used by Sam Altman to increase the value of his company. I don't trust a silicon valley rich guy with this more than I trust anybody else. Why should he sit and decide what the rest of us can't do, while he's getting richer? That is what the article is about..

Getting angry about one guy getting rich is silly in comparison to the serious threats presented by sudden AGI. Did all the other guys in Silicon Valley (or Wall Street, or Monaco, or Dubai) get rich in a justifiable fair way?

I agree that big companies/capitalists using their power to suppress the rest of us sucks, but that’s a systemic political battle that should be considered separately here.

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