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While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

bits.blogs.nytimes.com

11–20 of 106 posts

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#12
The real irony, to my mind is this: Apple is the company with the most integrity I've ever known. This manifests itself everywhere- from product quality to service at Apple stores.

Apple has been proactive in making sure their employees are well taken care of, here and abroad, and they've been doing this for the past decade.

They've been auditing suppliers in various ways for far longer than this story has even been in the news, going back at least to the 1990s.

Sure, Apple is the biggest, most profitable tech company, and it is also the one with the biggest brand. I think Apple's brand is a huge factor here- it is a global brand, it is associated with really good values such as quality, respect, integrity, etc, and thus it is the most attractive brand the put dirt on.

This explains why media, and unscrupulous people focus on attacking Apple for "working conditions".

But the reality is, when Foxconn has positions open to work for Apple, they get massive numbers of people who want to come work for them. Everyone in china has methods of communication, if Apple wasn't the best place to work, they wouldn't have so many applicants. Word would get out.

Apple solved this problem before it ever became a problem, but they are attacked because their brand is strong, and the people attacking them lack integrity.

They're also being attacked because it fits a political agenda. Unions and regulation have destroyed the manufacturing employment levels in the USA (actual manufacturing capacity is higher now than then, but a lot fewer people are employed) and so rather than recognize themselves as the cause of business moving overseas, they wish to demonize the businesses that did move overseas in the hope of coercing them to move back here. Every political season there are proposals that companies be punished for doing business overseas. This is why.

Thus perpetuating the fantasy that Apple runs sweatshops or uses "slave labor" is politically motivated.

The reality: When Foxconn cut back overtime (in response to this muckraking) the employees were very upset. They want to work more hours.

The employees have spoken...

----

I digressed. My original point is, that all these other companies are benefiting from Apple leading the way here. Apple is teaching the chinese how to be ethical and to treat employees well, by requiring it, and all these other manufacturers are benefiting from that.

This is a cost to apple, and it is a profit to those other manufacturers.

Thus it is really ironic when the media smears apple-- the company that has literally revolutionized manufacturing in china, as far as working conditions go.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#13
Apple is criticized more than the others because they are in the media a lot already. They are a hugely successful company that has entered the public zeitgeist in a way that few of their competitors have. So, with this comes a lot more scrutiny, and thus it was easy for Apple to be the focus of attention when Foxconn's labor practices started to be reported on in the US.

Apple is handling this issue well (and much better than their competitors). But the real "issue" here is something that Apple has understood for a while. "The jobs aren't coming back" is a product of many factors, and the cost of labor is a red herring in this debate.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$575 profit per iPhone? I think you mixed up profit with something else, maybe average sale price. In a free market, profit isn't determined by cost or your intuition about "fairness". Price is determined by supply and demand, and profit is price minus cost. Foxxconn already pays well above average wages while providing a safer workplace than the average US manufacturer, and a lower suicide rate than the Chinese aver…

>> [Foxconn provides] a safer workplace than the average US manufacturer Would really love to see some data that backs up that assertion.

I got it from

https://twitter.com/#!/nicepaul/status/163797296306331648/ph...

which gives a data source and is linked from

http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-blog/2012-03-20-now-can-we-star...

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#15

As we are constantly reminded here, Apple takes 80% of the phone industry profits and thus deserve proportionate blame for working conditions. They make $575 in profit from an iPhone but pay the Foxconn workers $7 to assemble it. They could double the pay and still make a very huge profit. On the other hand, many other companies like Amazon and Microsoft sell the hardware for a loss, hoping to make it up on software…

Should Microsoft be excluded from criticism if they make their buttloads of money from game sales and not the console itself?

Should Samsung be excluded from criticism because they discount their prices? Even though they make more phones than Apple?

If Apple decided to lower their prices to compete more aggressively with Android, would that absolve Apple of majority responsibility in your eyes?

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#16
post #12

The real irony, to my mind is this: Apple is the company with the most integrity I've ever known. This manifests itself everywhere- from product quality to service at Apple stores. Apple has been proactive in making sure their employees are well taken care of, here and abroad, and they've been doing this for the past decade. They've been auditing suppliers in various ways for far longer than this story has even been…

You have a cite for Apple "revolutionizing" working conditions? Please, they're a electronics designer. They contract with whoever bids lowest, and always have. One of the big reason Foxconn is so large now is precisely because they were the low bidder for Apple's business years ago.

Now, I agree with the premise of the linked article that Apple has been unfairly tarnished for problems that are endemic to the industry as a whole.

But to flip this around and claim that Apple is somehow a champion fighting for workers rights is ... just weird (and I'll admit that it makes me sad to see this kind of completely unselfaware fawning on a site where discussion used to be a lot more intellectually robust). Like the rest of the industry, Apple didn't do poop about chinese workers until they were embarassed.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#17
post #6

As we are constantly reminded here, Apple takes 80% of the phone industry profits and thus deserve proportionate blame for working conditions. They make $575 in profit from an iPhone but pay the Foxconn workers $7 to assemble it. They could double the pay and still make a very huge profit. On the other hand, many other companies like Amazon and Microsoft sell the hardware for a loss, hoping to make it up on software…

That $575 number is nonsensical; the iPhone 4S (the most expensive model) costs $599 off-contract. These phones do not cost $25 to make. The real number is somewhere around $300, most of which paid by the carrier: http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/26/iphone-sine-qua-non/ . Regardless, doubling the pay for workers does not solve the real issue here. Their wages are already above average for Chinese factory workers in that…

No disagreement that $575 in profits per phone is nonsensical, but

> the iPhone 4S (the most expensive model) costs $599 off-contract

649 according to the store, and that's for the 16GB version, the 64GB one is 849. According to http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iph... anyway.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#18
post #12

The real irony, to my mind is this: Apple is the company with the most integrity I've ever known. This manifests itself everywhere- from product quality to service at Apple stores. Apple has been proactive in making sure their employees are well taken care of, here and abroad, and they've been doing this for the past decade. They've been auditing suppliers in various ways for far longer than this story has even been…

I think you are giving Apple a bit too much credit. Apple is not teaching the Chinese how to be ethical. Apple is not revolutionizing manufacturing in China.

Apple is using a Chinese manufacturing company and giving them a lot of business. A LOTTTTT of business. This is a good thing.

But you can't go from there to claim that Apple is somehow teaching the poor Chinese, who are incapable of ethical action. It sounds very insulting the way you put it :(

I do wholeheartedly agree with the statement that the peculiar focus on Apple for Foxconn's bad working conditions is very strange. It's not like Foxconn is the only manufacturing company, nor is Apple their only customer.

Edit: I can grammar.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> [Foxconn provides] a safer workplace than the average US manufacturer Would really love to see some data that backs up that assertion.

I got it from https://twitter.com/#!/nicepaul/status/163797296306331648/ph... which gives a data source and is linked from http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-blog/2012-03-20-now-can-we-star...

Careful with your data sources and assertions. Some of this "data" needs a serious dose of fact checking.

The data for: https://twitter.com/#!/nicepaul/status/163797296306331648/ph...

as indicated at the bottom, comes from: http://onforb.es/wj2Lt6

which maps to: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/01/29/the-apple...

If you look at Tim Worstall's (kinda op-ed) article on the second page, you can see that the author says that if the fatalities rate in Foxconn was the same as that in the US, we would expect to have 35 fatalities / year. Then he says that we only heard about 3-4 workers hurt at Foxconn, hence the rate is lower. That argument is flawed because what we hear on the news cannot be construed to represent all fatalities at Foxconn. I suspect that the fatalities rate at Foxconn is not publicized (because it doesn't have to be).

Another issue is that to determine the relative safety of the workplaces, the author is only looking at workplace fatalities. What about looking at accidents that leave the workers unable to work or maimed?

Bottom line, I don't think the incomplete data that we have supports the assertion that Foxconn is a safer workplace.

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