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Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

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Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#61

Post by fsflover »

rekoil wrote: post #30
brookst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you square that claim with E2EE and the way Find My works?

You can finally have your entire iCloud account end-to-end encrypted using Advanced Data Protection since earlier this year. iCloud Backups, iCloud drive, passwords, health data, basically everything except specifically iCloud Mail, Contacts, and Calendar [1] is all inaccessible to Apple when Advanced Data Protection is enabled. 1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveil...

> First, iCloud E2EE is opt-in.

> Second, iCloud E2EE is woefully incomplete. When you iMessage with someone, they have iCloud Backup on by default, and non-E2EE by default, which means that approximately all of your iMessages (including all image and document attachments) will still be readable by Apple and the FBI because they are backed up twice: once from each end of the conversation.

> Furthermore, the E2EE for iCloud Photos is not designed to preserve privacy. Even though iCloud Photos now supports E2EE for the content of the photos and videos stored, the file metadata is not E2EE, and the metadata includes the FILENAME and also a unique hash of the unencrypted file content.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#62

Post by colinsane »

fsflover wrote: post #58
m-p-3 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your carrier can follow your location by triangulating your position from your SIM ID.

Only if the modem hardware kill switch is on. I can always make sure I'm not tracked whenever I need it.

plus as anyone doing navigation with these open source phones knows, 3gpp location is embarrassingly low resolution without a supplemental source like WiFi SSID visibility, which has to be measured client-side. plus cell networks are asymmetric (SNR is higher from tower -> cell than from cell -> tower) so all else equal triangulation on the tower side should be even lower resolution.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#63

Post by AniseAbyss »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #47
alpaca128 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flipside e.g. in Germany this has been used to track down creators of illegal graffiti, using a law that is intended for terrorism and other heavy crimes. We can allow search and rescue missions without having to also accept abuse of power.

All this and the parent comment means is that any tool that is useful, is equally useful for good or bad. It is yet another example showing how it's wrong to address something bad by attacking the tool used to do it.

[dead]

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#64

Post by rekoil »

fsflover wrote: post #61
rekoil wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can finally have your entire iCloud account end-to-end encrypted using Advanced Data Protection since earlier this year. iCloud Backups, iCloud drive, passwords, health data, basically everything except specifically iCloud Mail, Contacts, and Calendar [1] is all inaccessible to Apple when Advanced Data Protection is enabled. 1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveil... > First, iCloud E2EE is opt-in. > Second, iCloud E2EE is woefully incomplete. When you iMessage with someone, they have iCloud Backup on by default, and non-E2EE by default, which means that approximately all of your iMessages (including all image and document attachments) will still be readable by Apple and the FBI because they are backed up twice: once…

Yeah I wasn't sure how they claim iCloud Photos is E2EE, on your side there, but the iMessage thing is obvious, if information is leaving me it's going to someone and becomes that persons information. Not much you can do about that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I did specifically choose not to mention Photos for that reason.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#65

Post by fsflover »

Alifatisk wrote: post #38
eimrine wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Apple's approach better and what is really different?

I would guess is because Apple and Google have different business models, Google is an ad company specializing on collecting info while Apple is selling hardware and software.

https://searchads.apple.com/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#66

Post by fsflover »

RockRobotRock wrote: post #31
hospitalJail wrote: post #5

This is so crazy to see. Usually when Apple faces the public, everything is super curated to sound pro-consumer, even if its anti-consumer. Sure this PDF doesnt venture far from it, they still paint Apple in the prettiest picture, but the terminology shows that Apple is basically doing the same thing as google but with slightly different methods to blur it. Heck, we don't actually know what is going on inside an iPho…

Apple sells expensive hardware and Google sells ads and data. I agree that we will never know for sure what Apple does, but follow the incentives and you will know which company has more to lose.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#67

Post by fsflover »

rekoil wrote: post #64
fsflover wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveil... > First, iCloud E2EE is opt-in. > Second, iCloud E2EE is woefully incomplete. When you iMessage with someone, they have iCloud Backup on by default, and non-E2EE by default, which means that approximately all of your iMessages (including all image and document attachments) will still be readable by Apple and the FBI because they are backed up twice: once…

Yeah I wasn't sure how they claim iCloud Photos is E2EE, on your side there, but the iMessage thing is obvious, if information is leaving me it's going to someone and becomes that persons information. Not much you can do about that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I did specifically choose not to mention Photos for that reason.

> if information is leaving me it's going to someone and becomes that persons information.

This is fine. Not having end-to-end encryption by default is not fine, because default plain text backups effectively removes the end-to-end encryption.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#69

Post by rekoil »

fsflover wrote: post #67
rekoil wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I wasn't sure how they claim iCloud Photos is E2EE, on your side there, but the iMessage thing is obvious, if information is leaving me it's going to someone and becomes that persons information. Not much you can do about that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I did specifically choose not to mention Photos for that reason.

> if information is leaving me it's going to someone and becomes that persons information. This is fine. Not having end-to-end encryption by default is not fine, because default plain text backups effectively removes the end-to-end encryption.

Yeah. I don't think this is done out of malice though, Apple has literally hundreds of millions of customers, not being able to restore access to the majority of these due to lost passwords would risk losing customers which they can't have.

That said I think the benefits of Advanced Data Protection should be more clearly explained to users and the feature should be more prominently presented during onboarding, both new users but also existing users when the feature was rolled out.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#70

Post by realusername »

brookst wrote: post #17
realusername wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Apple world, they basically carefully redefined privacy as "anyones else besides us getting access". They put themselves as a fully trusted party for everything.

How do you square that claim with E2EE and the way Find My works?

E2EE arrived very very late and is even off by default. Anybody you are messaging to is going to have E2EE off and their backup data sent to the US government for analysis (see PRISM revelations which Apple participated to). Since you can't get iMessage without iCloud (at least to my knowledge) it's one of the most problematic messaging platform out there because of that.

For Find My, since they can even locate switched off phones, that tells you all you need about how it works. I find the whole concept creepy.

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