Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#21

Post by imglorp » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:18 PM UTC

m-p-3 wrote: post #2

All smartphones are. There's only so much you can do to cover your track. There's most likely always someone knowing where you are if your phone is powered on (or even powered off with Apple Find My network). https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/07/ios-15-find-my-network-can-fi...

Forget about all the app and OS, maybe they're clean and maybe not.

There's also the cell layer, which constantly negotiates with cell towers for sector and power as normal idling. So they know your location at least to tower (CGI), sector and delay (CGITA) and sometimes trilaterated (UTDOA) from ~1000m down to 10m accuracy. The towers' base station controllers need to keep logs anyway, so the cell company has records of your rough location.

Then there's bluetooth, wifi, audio beacons, optical, magnetic and inertial nav, all emitting or recieving you move through the world. None of this requires GPS, some requires app participation, some doesn't.

All phones are location and surveillance devices. Leave it home if you're serious.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#22

Post by rekoil » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:24 PM UTC

brookst wrote: post #14

HumblyTossed wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heck, we don't actually know what is going on inside an iPhone, they could be combining accounts and sending data to Cambridge Analytica for all we know. You have a point. Apple depends so much on security by obscurity.

That’s true of everything you haven’t compiled yourself, using a compiler you wrote and bootstrapped yourself. There is no technical proof that any of the software or hardware we use every day is trustworthy. There is, however, incentive alignment that makes it unlikely that companies do wild and crazy things.

> That’s true of everything you haven’t compiled yourself, using a compiler you wrote and bootstrapped yourself.

Don't forget the hardware you built yourself. [1]

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#23

Post by cloudripper » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:25 PM UTC

imglorp wrote: post #21

m-p-3 wrote: post #2

All smartphones are. There's only so much you can do to cover your track. There's most likely always someone knowing where you are if your phone is powered on (or even powered off with Apple Find My network). https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/07/ios-15-find-my-network-can-fi...

Forget about all the app and OS, maybe they're clean and maybe not. There's also the cell layer, which constantly negotiates with cell towers for sector and power as normal idling. So they know your location at least to tower (CGI), sector and delay (CGITA) and sometimes trilaterated (UTDOA) from ~1000m down to 10m accuracy. The towers' base station controllers need to keep logs anyway, so the cell company has record…

The positive side to tracking and a cell layer anecdote - cell layer forensics are often utilized in search and rescue contexts. I have seen this data accessed (through legal procedure in the US) and utilized to save lives of the missing and to provide closure to the families/friends of the missing.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#24

Post by Y_Y » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:26 PM UTC

alexfromapex wrote: post #6

Y_Y wrote: post #4

Android isn't a device though. Airtags are tracking devices. Android phones can be used for tracking, but that's because of phones, not because of Android.

My impression is that it’s metonymy not meant to be taken literally

I guess so, but it's an awkward use, like if you said "the oval office is a bad president".

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#25

Post by cultureswitch » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:27 PM UTC

I'd rather have Apple's hypocritical "only we may spy on our users" approach than Google's. But anyway, I use GrapheneOS.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#26

Post by isodev » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:29 PM UTC

TrickyRick wrote: post #16

lutrinus wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn’t changed though, has it?

It really has, Android actually has privacy controls now which they definitely didn't in 2013. Developers can't request your location 24/7 without you even being aware of it like they could 10 years ago.

The point of the slides was Google, not third party developers. I feel things have gotten worst. Google controls not only the device itself, but also most people’s browser and tools when they decide to use something else.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#27

Post by eimrine » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:31 PM UTC

brookst wrote: post #17

realusername wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Apple world, they basically carefully redefined privacy as "anyones else besides us getting access". They put themselves as a fully trusted party for everything.

How do you square that claim with E2EE and the way Find My works?

Not everything is under E2EE and the Find My is probably not the biggest privacy problem of Apple.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#28

Post by alpaca128 » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:32 PM UTC

cloudripper wrote: post #23

imglorp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget about all the app and OS, maybe they're clean and maybe not. There's also the cell layer, which constantly negotiates with cell towers for sector and power as normal idling. So they know your location at least to tower (CGI), sector and delay (CGITA) and sometimes trilaterated (UTDOA) from ~1000m down to 10m accuracy. The towers' base station controllers need to keep logs anyway, so the cell company has record…

The positive side to tracking and a cell layer anecdote - cell layer forensics are often utilized in search and rescue contexts. I have seen this data accessed (through legal procedure in the US) and utilized to save lives of the missing and to provide closure to the families/friends of the missing.

On the flipside e.g. in Germany this has been used to track down creators of illegal graffiti, using a law that is intended for terrorism and other heavy crimes. We can allow search and rescue missions without having to also accept abuse of power.

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#29

Post by asimpletune » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:32 PM UTC

hospitalJail wrote: post #5

This is so crazy to see. Usually when Apple faces the public, everything is super curated to sound pro-consumer, even if its anti-consumer. Sure this PDF doesnt venture far from it, they still paint Apple in the prettiest picture, but the terminology shows that Apple is basically doing the same thing as google but with slightly different methods to blur it. Heck, we don't actually know what is going on inside an iPho…

I don't understand from this document how you mean Apple is doing the same thing? In what sense do you mean?

Also, how can you consider it "gaslighting" if it's a private document not intended for the public? Who are they gaslighting?

Re: Apple: Android is a tracking device [pdf]

#30

Post by rekoil » Fri, Nov 03, 2023, 12:32 PM UTC

brookst wrote: post #17

realusername wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Apple world, they basically carefully redefined privacy as "anyones else besides us getting access". They put themselves as a fully trusted party for everything.

How do you square that claim with E2EE and the way Find My works?

You can finally have your entire iCloud account end-to-end encrypted using Advanced Data Protection since earlier this year.

iCloud Backups, iCloud drive, passwords, health data, basically everything except specifically iCloud Mail, Contacts, and Calendar [1] is all inaccessible to Apple when Advanced Data Protection is enabled.

1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303