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How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

ycombinator.com

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Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#221

Post by kaidon »

zoogeny wrote: post #76

The intro of that video hit hard and hurt. I have literally been in that position where I built the analytics page, which marketing asked for, and I can see the analytics for the analytics and no one has even checked the page. And so I chime in asking if anyone else has noticed that our big product release is not going anywhere and its like crickets. You realize that from your position that you have no ability to hol…

Are you me? I agree and have experienced every single thing here.

> I believe that it is a mistake to believe that merely working harder will earn that respect.

You must be a principal level developer -- it is a role driven with the highest degree of cynicism and empathy, which you comment is gushing with.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#222

Post by marcod »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #3

How to get rich in tech as a mediocre programmer: 1. Transfer to a TPM/QA Manager role at somewhere like Amazon or Microsoft. Bar is much lower to get into this role. 2. Get hired into a higher level than you could in a SWE role. 3. Transfer within the company to being an SDM 4. Now you are one level higher, in a management role, that would have taken you 5+ years of grinding and some luck to get into. 5. Spend a few…

I failed somewhere around step 4 :p

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#223

Post by kamikaz1k »

ditonal wrote: post #170
satvikpendem wrote: post #9

One of the top comments on the YouTube video attached to the article talks about how someone wasted their 20s working as the founding engineer (employee #6 of a 6-person startup) and when the company exited for $100 MM, they only got 100k and are still working at 40 years of age while the other 5, presumably having cofounder-level equity, are retired. This is the true risk of startups, and, if you're looking to maxim…

One thing people need to remember is the world runs on incentives. And on this topic, there is a HUGE incentive to mislead people. The facts are: 1) Tech startups usually need a bunch of good engineers 2) Investors and founders want these engineers for as little money as possible, as almost every owner-labor relationship in history has gone 3) Stock options have mystique from once-in-a-lifetime companies like Google…

What makes YC, employee hostile? Have they said anything?

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#224

Post by rrr_oh_man »

sokoloff wrote: post #180
axlee wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is also to keep people around. Software engineers are notoriously feeble, as they get offers extremely regularly.

Do you mean “fickle” rather than “feeble”?

Made me chuckle, thanks!

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#225

Post by quelltext »

deely3 wrote: post #160
paxys wrote: post #147

I have seen so many of their examples happen first hand in the industry. - Lead engineer works 100 hour weeks to keep the company running for a below-market salary and 0.05% equity while the founders and product/sales leads constantly sell shares on the secondary market, buy fancy toys and travel the world. - Technical cofounder gets a 3% equity because the "business guy" came up with the idea and deserves the other…

I don't know.. should car driver, or cleaner, or repair man get the same equity as founders or top managers? Does work as software developer really different from maintenance and repair guy that (sadly) easy replacable?

If you think that an engineer is replaceable, why isn't the rest of the early employees? Or do you mean that only founders should get any equity?

I'm not quite sure what your comparison does. If you build a company fundamentally built on the work of good drivers or cleaners, yeah perhaps you should give them equity.

If you just contract that work out once in a while for a company that doesn't have these jobs at its core, then probably don't.

But also, most drivers, cleaners, and (to a lesser degree) repairman can be more easily replaced. The former two in particular don't require any special skills normal people don't already have to possess. And where skills come into play, we're still not looking at 4+ years of college required type of skills. Hence, there's not as much supply of engineers as there is for repairmen. And the roles you describe do not fundamentally create anything. Engineers, in particular early engineers in a startup actually design, construct, operate, and maintain 80% of what is actually generating value. Other roles supporting them also deserve a piece of the pie but questioning why engineers should get equity at all and someone having an idea and the funds to kickstart a company should get all seems odd.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#226

Post by xctr94 »

eweise wrote: post #149
satvikpendem wrote: post #9

One of the top comments on the YouTube video attached to the article talks about how someone wasted their 20s working as the founding engineer (employee #6 of a 6-person startup) and when the company exited for $100 MM, they only got 100k and are still working at 40 years of age while the other 5, presumably having cofounder-level equity, are retired. This is the true risk of startups, and, if you're looking to maxim…

Been working at startups on and off for over 20 years. In total I've spent more money on stock options than I've made from them.

I’m on the same boat, plus the startup I helped co-found later found a loophole to steal my 20% of equity. Startups are a scam.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#227

Post by onion2k »

throwaway092323 wrote: post #205
pb7 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re wrong. You’re worth what you can fetch. If you feel that it’s unfair, find a new bidder and make it fair.

Does that logic still apply to teachers? How about public defenders? Food bank staff? Punishing people for believing in their work is called "exploitation".

Does that logic still apply to teachers? How about public defenders? Food bank staff?

Yes.

Personally, I think they're all underpaid. But I don't set their wages. Society does that by agreeing a level of tax people are happy with, and then spending that money on public employee's wages. Collectively society has agreed to pay those people as little as possible. That's the important thing in any wage negotiation - you have to understand where the money is coming from, because ultimately that's who gets to decide the maximum limit of one side of the bargaining process.

So in the case of teachers you have an individual teacher's pay being an agreement between that person and how much Joe Random wants to pay in tax. Teachers are always going to lose out on that one.

The answer is either to educate the public about the value of public wealth (eg why higher taxes are actually better for society in many ways), or to privatise the education system. Neither works well on a national level.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#228

Post by pb7 »

throwaway092323 wrote: post #205
pb7 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re wrong. You’re worth what you can fetch. If you feel that it’s unfair, find a new bidder and make it fair.

Does that logic still apply to teachers? How about public defenders? Food bank staff? Punishing people for believing in their work is called "exploitation".

It applies to anyone working in a free market. A software engineer can't be overpaid because all participants in the transaction are a part of a free market. The party writing the check strongly believes they're profiting from the transaction.

> Punishing people for believing in their work is called "exploitation".

What is the relevance of this?

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#229

Post by fatnoah »

eweise wrote: post #149
satvikpendem wrote: post #9

One of the top comments on the YouTube video attached to the article talks about how someone wasted their 20s working as the founding engineer (employee #6 of a 6-person startup) and when the company exited for $100 MM, they only got 100k and are still working at 40 years of age while the other 5, presumably having cofounder-level equity, are retired. This is the true risk of startups, and, if you're looking to maxim…

Been working at startups on and off for over 20 years. In total I've spent more money on stock options than I've made from them.

Same. My net is the -$200 I spent exercising options in my first startup.

I'm currently on my fourth because it's good experience and I needed a job after being laid off from a larger company. I'm a exec and have a decent amount of options and the company has customers and a path to profitability, but I'm still not counting on those options being worth anything.

Of my previous 3 startups. 2 were acquired and one is still chugging along and making a small profit with no exit plans. Total value of my stock was the aforementioned negative number.

Join startups for the experience, not for the paper money.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#230

Post by bmitc »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #161
bmitc wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Success doesn't always imply the better approach. Also, failure is an important part of science and technology, and success is often driven by insights derived from failures.

I have a successful career and my neighbors failures are not related to that in any way. you'll need to give a more strict definition of the word better before this can be a useful conversation.

That's not relevant.

And one could similarly ask for a definition of success. But the ecact interpretation of the definitions would depend upon the context.

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