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One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

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Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#251

Post by Aurornis »

PreachSoup wrote: post #188
Hard_Space wrote: post #35

Having suffered from severe depression for over forty years, this reminds me of when I was 17, 18, etc. and suddenly discovered that if I stayed up for two days, the problem went away. So I knew this a very long time ago; but it always seemed to me that, besides smoking, this was just about one of the worst habits you could develop. By my mid-twenties, I had stopped.

Seems that I'm in the opposite. If I don't get enough sleep I would have noticeable bad mood.

The depression altering effect requires total sleep deprivation, or at least missing most of certain part of the night.

Getting 4-6 hours of sleep generally won't do it. You really have to upset the whole system to trigger the effect.

Which is also why it's completely unsustainable. More of a novelty and research topic, not an actual treatment.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#252

Post by naasking »

Loughla wrote: post #60
Waterluvian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My anxiety now is that using THC to sleep will cause issues long term. But without it I literally cannot get to sleep anymore. Edit: I regret pulling focus off parent comment and OP, but also deeply appreciate everyone’s comments.

So I feel like you exactly identified the long term problem in the same paragraph. I learned years ago that any chemical that helps you sleep ensures that you can't sleep without it. I've used everything from thc to Benadryl to lavender and everything in between. It all had the same effects: slowly degrading effectiveness and sleeplessness without it. Pro-tip: find the source of your insomnia. Is it chemical or is it…

> any chemical that helps you sleep ensures that you can't sleep without it

Except melatonin, because that's what your body natural produces as a signal for sleep.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#253

Post by mcpackieh »

cmyr wrote: post #100
johnnyanmac wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

damn, so I'm screwed and I don't even get to enjoy the upsides of cannabis. Rough world.

I’ve smoked weed before bed most nights for at least a decade, and if I happen to skip a night I… still sleep fine, unless I’ve had no exercise that day.

What if you skip two weeks? For me skipping one night was always easy, but after a few days that's when I ran into trouble. After one or two weeks it gets better.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#254

Post by totetsu »

sys32768 wrote: post #15

Once I hit my 40s, staying up too late causes a sleep hangover that would last a couple of days. Gone are my days of playing Ultima IV all night and feeling giddy in the morning.

Nearing 40s and I can’t imagine how I used to live with gaming all nighters either. But I have found recently that not just a late night, but a full night without sleep, and pushing through the next morning did bring about a lot of mental clarity the following day.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#255

Post by sneed_chucker »

zdragnar wrote: post #196
baxtr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your normal state depressed though? I don’t think it works for “normal” people.

I was diagnosed with dysthymic depression a little over 20 years ago. Therapy helped reset my expectations for myself, meds keep me regular. I had a stint of a few years off of medication to see how it went, thinking that I was sufficiently practiced at introspection to know if I needed to start again. I was very wrong, and put it off far too long. I've been back on medication for about 7 years and don't plan on stop…

What meds worked for your dysthymia?

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#256

Post by whatindaheck »

Hard_Space wrote: post #35

Having suffered from severe depression for over forty years, this reminds me of when I was 17, 18, etc. and suddenly discovered that if I stayed up for two days, the problem went away. So I knew this a very long time ago; but it always seemed to me that, besides smoking, this was just about one of the worst habits you could develop. By my mid-twenties, I had stopped.

I usually start to feel normal late into the night. After 11pm the depression and disassociation fades away. My mood brightens. I feel like I have infinite energy and easily stay up until 5am. It’s a strange rollercoaster.

It really isn’t sustainable…as I lost a really good job over it. Now I’m sticking to a schedule with 8 hours of sleep but I don’t ever get that “feel good” kick. Just perpetually drained and unmotivated.

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#257

Post by arcticbull »

Aurornis wrote: post #250
arcticbull wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, SSRIs are only slightly but statistically significantly better than active placebos. While early trials showed a big difference between antidepressants and placebos, more recent studies have significantly narrowed that gap. FDA data shows a reduction of symptoms of about 30% in placebo vs 40% in antidepressants. [1] [edit] Doctors note that the difference between antidepressants and placebo isn'…

Contrarians and cynics have been trying the "barely better than placebo" angle for decades, but antidepressants are indeed superior to placebo. You can find articles and reviews that play games with statistics, cherry pick studies, and use various thresholds for effect size to try to downplay it, but they do work for a lot of people. > While early trials showed a big difference between antidepressants and placebos, m…

> Contrarians and cynics...

I don't think they're contrarians and cynics although some undoubtedly are. They seem to be study authors. The fact is treatments, even broadly used ones, aren't always super effective. Sometimes they're just the only ones we have, and we as humans have a bias towards action being over inaction in medical care.

I may be contrarian and cynical in a lot of things, but modern medicine isn't one of them. I just like to be data driven.

> ... but they do work for a lot of people.

They work for most of those people just about as well as a sugar pill would, yes. Slighly better. There's a real mismatch in terms of public perception of how much better they actually work.

> Contrarians and cynics have been trying the "barely better than placebo" angle for decades, but antidepressants are indeed superior to placebo.

The study that I linked showing the 30%-40% numbers are from FDA data. There's no games played, the study authors got the FDA data by FIOA.

The fact that placebo effect is strong doesn't really mean much other than depression is something that you can treat through things like therapy, which the data shows is exactly as effective as antidepressants. A psychosomatic angle, even if that's not the right word. The desire to heal is sufficient to change the way you think about your situation, and that exists no matter what you're taking.

If taking your conclusion to an extreme, the placebo effect was exactly as strong as an antidepressant - or stronger - why wouldn't we just prescribe sugar pills instead? In fact since the delta between SSRIs and sugar pills is clinically insignificant - while SSRIs have tons of side-effects - why wouldn't we just prescribe sugar pills now? Does that mean sugar pills are effective against depression, or are SSRIs treating depression largely through placebo?

Putting it another way, the placebo effect doesn't treat punch biopsy wounds. [1]

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30212845/

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#259

Post by mycall »

whatindaheck wrote: post #256
Hard_Space wrote: post #35

Having suffered from severe depression for over forty years, this reminds me of when I was 17, 18, etc. and suddenly discovered that if I stayed up for two days, the problem went away. So I knew this a very long time ago; but it always seemed to me that, besides smoking, this was just about one of the worst habits you could develop. By my mid-twenties, I had stopped.

I usually start to feel normal late into the night. After 11pm the depression and disassociation fades away. My mood brightens. I feel like I have infinite energy and easily stay up until 5am. It’s a strange rollercoaster. It really isn’t sustainable…as I lost a really good job over it. Now I’m sticking to a schedule with 8 hours of sleep but I don’t ever get that “feel good” kick. Just perpetually drained and unmoti…

[Look for|Make a] night job and merge your favorite parts in life?

Re: One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice

#260

Post by zdragnar »

sneed_chucker wrote: post #255
zdragnar wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was diagnosed with dysthymic depression a little over 20 years ago. Therapy helped reset my expectations for myself, meds keep me regular. I had a stint of a few years off of medication to see how it went, thinking that I was sufficiently practiced at introspection to know if I needed to start again. I was very wrong, and put it off far too long. I've been back on medication for about 7 years and don't plan on stop…

What meds worked for your dysthymia?

The standard first-pass type SSRIs (i.e. fluoxetine) just gave me side effects, ranging from bad to very bad.

Wellbutrin and effexor both worked alright, but I felt like I needed to keep ramping the dose. It is also possible that I was poorly managing my stress in high school and college. Ultimately I topped out at the highest dose, and ended up getting anxiety issues (never medicated) on top.

I don't recall what I switched to after, but that was the point I tapered off of meds entirely for a few years.

I ended up back on Lexapro and it has been a life saver. I also started up therapy with the Lexapro, which I realize in retrospect I should have been doing to much sooner. After a few months my therapist said I didn't need regular sessions any more, and I haven't been back since.

That said, I'm aware enough to know it is a bit of a balancing act. Managing my stress levels is the biggest thing, and if something significant and negative in my life were to happen, I'd probably start up again.

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