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Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

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Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#91
post #59

If you can find the oversized print copy of this Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English translation, originally published by Random House, it is one of the most visually inspiring books to read: https://eheart.com/TAO/TTC/TTCchapters-small.pdf Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English were married (by Alan Watts!), and each chapter of the book includes inspiring black-and-white photography by English, with artful Chinese calligraphy from G…

Looks beautiful - is this that edition? https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/180810/tao-te-ching...

The original was published by Random House in 1972; mine is a 25th anniversary copy published by Vintage in 1997.

The one you link to, published by Penguin - Random House in 2011, says "Jane English and her long-time editor, Toinette Lippe, have refreshed and revised the translation" and that it "features over a hundred new photographs by Jane English", so seems like it might be a 2.0 version. I'm sure it's beautiful and inspiring as well, but I've only personally read the original version.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#92

How are you supposed to read the Tao Te Ching? I’ve picked up a few copies and didn’t quite understand.

They’re like koans worth contemplating. Not usually direct advice (though that’s there too!). Taoism is about the limitations of our ability to comprehend and “name” things. So by definition it would say we cannot have a literal understanding of the Dao or the universe. A lot of Taoism is about opposites. Both coexisting / feeding on each other and they’re waxing and waning. You can’t achieve victory without inevitab…

Thank you.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#93
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well verse 53 twists the knife https://twitter.com/yoginho/status/1244892104196870146

Not really, that chapter is more about irresponsible nobles. Starving the farmers and consequently others is rather characteristic of communism, I would say. A better chapter to make your point would be chapter 80. But if all one tries to use the tao te ching for is scoring points for or against some ism, a large point has been missed.

> Starving the farmers and consequently others is rather characteristic of communism,

You're confusing communism with dictatorship. Communism is about communal ownership, and likely some version of worker-ownership ("own the means of production"). If the system, or its leaders, are starving the farmers, and the farmers and their customers can't actively negotiate against that practice, you don't have communism at all.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#94

How are you supposed to read the Tao Te Ching? I’ve picked up a few copies and didn’t quite understand.

You should revisit the book in a few years. Tao can't be explained. It's something that should be experienced first-hand. Chapter 1 says:

The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real. Naming is the origin of all particular things.

There are several ways to experience it even if it's transitory: Being in nature, Deep meditation, Flow states during any activity, sensory enhancement/depravation (e.g. float tank), Psychoactive substances (last option) etc.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#95

I've seen Tao Te Ching's translation on the HN front page for several times. It seems people are interested in it. The thing with Tao Te Ching is it's too ambiguous because: 1) The Chinese language is very overloaded and thus very ambiguous. 2) Classical Chinese is even more so. 3) Tao Te Ching is intentionally filled with clever puns which makes it more ambiguous. The problem with translations is the translator has…

There was a period in my life in my early 20s when I dabbled heavily in taoism. The book was a staple read for me and I tried to adjust my Outlook accordingly for a long time. Finally though, i dropped it and went back to who I was. Your comment makes me wonder if the specific translation of the book I read was a big factor.

Is it possible to dabble heavily? If you're dabbling heavily are you still dabbling?

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#96
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well verse 53 twists the knife https://twitter.com/yoginho/status/1244892104196870146

Not really, that chapter is more about irresponsible nobles. Starving the farmers and consequently others is rather characteristic of communism, I would say. A better chapter to make your point would be chapter 80. But if all one tries to use the tao te ching for is scoring points for or against some ism, a large point has been missed.

Dao-ism is the only ism I see. It’s not about scoring points, it is trying to live in accord with the Dao.

80? That is about government!

What about 19??

Give up ingenuity, renounce profit, And bandits and thieves will disappear.

29?

Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it? I do not believe it can be done.

66?

Because he does not compete, He does not meet competition.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#97
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has translated many works from other ancient languages and is a trained Zen monk. In the spirit of Taoism he is likely a better translator than an intellectual. The work is brief. There is room for multiple translations and interpretations.

> He has translated many works from other ancient languages Not really. Most of his other "translations" from ancient languages were made the same way as with the Tao te ching : he simply rewrote existing translations. As far as I can tell, the Book of Job translation is the only one made from the source text. I don’t think you understand how notorious Mitchell has been within the field of literary translation for de…

> Zen and Taoism are different philosophical systems.

My understanding (and some points in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism echo it) is that Chan/Zen Buddhism is a descendant of Mahāyāna Buddhism and Taoism. In that way, it is itself a Taoist religion.

> Most of his other "translations" from ancient languages were made the same way as with the Tao te ching

This is incorrect for any Ancient Hebrew or Greek works. Genesis is listed as "translated". On the Psalms he says:

  I have translated fairly closely where that has been possible; but I have also paraphrased, expanded, contracted, deleted, shuffled the order of verses, and freely improvised on the themes of the originals.
And then there's "Gospel According to Jesus", also listed as a translation.

From Googling "does stephen mitchell know ancient greek"

  Some of his translations aren't, strictly speaking, translations, but adaptations. He knows Greek, Latin, Hebrew, French, German, Italian and Danish, but he's also rewritten works in languages he doesn't know—Chinese, Sanskrit and Babylonian.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#98

How are you supposed to read the Tao Te Ching? I’ve picked up a few copies and didn’t quite understand.

I read it while under the influence of some psychedelics; all the dots connected, and it instantly clicked. YMMV.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#99

How are you supposed to read the Tao Te Ching? I’ve picked up a few copies and didn’t quite understand.

Very good question; let me attempt an answer :-)

Any aphoristic philosophical text has a certain "Worldview" which it tries to convey via many means viz. Directly/Symbolically/Analogically/Metaphorically/Allegorically. This "Worldview" is the background canvas on which a philosophical text paints a specific picture.

In the case of "Tao Te Ching/Dao De Jing" a good starting point can be found in wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao#Buddhist_interpretations

The Tao is the natural way of the universe, whose character one's intuition must discern to realize the potential for individual wisdom...This seeing of life cannot be grasped as a concept. Rather, it is seen through actual living experience of one's everyday being...Its name, "Tao", or "Dao"...signifies the way, path, route, road, or sometimes more loosely doctrine, principle, or holistic belief.

Laozi in the Tao Te Ching explains that the Tao is not a name for a thing, but the underlying natural order of the universe whose ultimate essence is difficult to circumscribe because it is non-conceptual yet evident in one's being of aliveness. The Tao is "eternally nameless" and should be distinguished from the countless named things that are considered to be its manifestations, ...

The Tao can be roughly thought of as the "flow of the universe", or as some essence or pattern behind the natural world that keeps the Universe balanced and ordered... The Tao is a non-dualistic principle—it is the greater whole from which all the individual elements of the Universe derive.

The Tao is usually described in terms of elements of nature, and in particular, as similar to water. Like water it is undifferentiated, endlessly self-replenishing, soft and quiet but immensely powerful, and impassively generous

Much of Taoist philosophy centers on the cyclical continuity of the natural world and its contrast to the linear, goal-oriented actions of human beings, as well as the perception that the Tao is "the source of all being, in which life and death are the same.

So in simple terms "Living holistically everyday according to Natural order" (analogous to "Systems Thinking"). The idea of "Natural Order" is somewhat similar to "Divine Providence" of western theology but more abstract since there is no "God" here. You have a primordial "Tao" from which everything comes into being and which has inlaid the rules of creation, preservation and destruction and the cycle keeps going indefinitely. If one then adapts one's everyday behaviours, attitudes and actions to harmonize with the above "Worldview" in mind (i.e. holistic viewpoint) one can bear all trials and tribulations with equanimity and grace.

The above background should be enough to start reading the text itself. I recommend reading Red Pine's translation along with any others you might like.

PS: I also recommend reading a simpler text (but with similar ideas) named Caigentan (Vegetable Root Discourses) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caigentan) which you might find helpful in grasping certain concepts.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Gia-Fu Feng, Jane English Translation (1989)

#100
post #67

I've seen Tao Te Ching's translation on the HN front page for several times. It seems people are interested in it. The thing with Tao Te Ching is it's too ambiguous because: 1) The Chinese language is very overloaded and thus very ambiguous. 2) Classical Chinese is even more so. 3) Tao Te Ching is intentionally filled with clever puns which makes it more ambiguous. The problem with translations is the translator has…

I got to read, shortly after the Tao, a book that compiled for part of the texts something like 4 of the 'best'[0] translations. It was very enlightening to see how different yet similar they could be. If you think of it as semantic vectors, I would say the meaning is probably the common part between all translations. It is definitely a recommended exercise to read different ones. It's not unique to taoist texts eith…

This website lets you choose various translates and compare them verse by verse:

https://ttc.tasuki.org/display:Code:gff,sm,jc,rh

(Select different translations to add/remove from the hamburger menu)

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