Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project." • Hacker News Board

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#211

Post by robertpateii » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 12:38 AM UTC

jfoster wrote: post #200

coffeemug wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a world of difference between citizens complaining how their governments are corrupt, and husbands complaining how their wives boss them around. The former is a macro problem - if you're unhappy there's very little you can do to make a difference, you really need everyone to get behind your cause but because of weird behavioral science quirks this happens very rarely. The latter is a micro problem - learn to…

I don't have any serious concerns about privacy because of Facebook, but I do want to point out an aspect where Facebook's privacy controls don't apply. If someone takes a photo of you, they can upload it to Facebook. If they tag you, you can remove the tag. The photo will be there regardless of whether you accept/remove any tagging, and it will be outside the jurisdiction of your privacy controls. The uploader contr…

What you say is true, but it would still be true if Facebook didn't exist. It will always be true because Internet.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#212

Post by Shivetya » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 12:40 AM UTC

victork2 wrote: post #45

noduerme wrote: post #10

When I was a kid, my parents sent me to camp, even though all I wanted to do was sit home and write text adventures in BASIC. I hated camp. I hated the kids, and the counselors, and most of all I hated how everyone acted like if you didn't like it, if you weren't having fun, then there was something messed up about you . Facebook = camp. The most oppressive and authoritarian thing about it is, at root, that most peop…

I for one think it's a great analogy (having been in a camp I can definitely say that I didn't enjoy it and I was rejected based on that). I silently deleted my facebook account about two years ago because I didn't like losing my time looking at stupid stuff. I found out that falling into the Facebook time vortex was too much of an inconvenience and the only way around that was to delete Facebook. Now when I say that…

I receive more grief from women I date for not having a facebook account than having a cheap ass cell phone. At work, since I am in IT, some coworkers express mock shock I do not have an account.

Then there is the bombardment of expecting to have a LinkedIn account as well.

People are far to quick to give up their privacy, I guess it comes down to the fact people want to be heard and noticed more listening and noticing others.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#213

Post by noduerme » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 12:53 AM UTC

davidhollander wrote: post #201

noduerme wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How incredibly academic. Let's leave the ongoing debate about how to "characterize [their] actions" until a universal definition of 'freedom' is agreed upon. That should satisfy the monsters. I think Sartre settled this one. We're either wholly determined, or else wholly free. And since consciousness means that fate isn't preordained - we're free. Anyway, in case he was off the mark, the alternative is a boot on a hu…

To resummarize my position above: A 'violation of freedom' requires the use of force by an authority. A parent forcing a child to go somewhere in spite of their preferences is a 'violation of freedom'. A government forcing a citizen to go somewhere in spite of their preferences is a 'violation of freedom'. Neither the first case nor the second case are necessarily the same proportionality or equally 'heinous'. 'heino…

That people voluntarily gave facebook a temporary claim to certain inalienable rights is undeniable. What happened was that the userbase shifted and became larger, the power of the individual became weaker, and the rights and obligations vested in the company in the initial user agreement were eroded to the point of meaninglessness, without ongoing consent from the user. So at this point, your data is theirs. Moreover, there is no other alternative. Facebook is 'Brave New World' in miniature. It's easy enough to stand outside it and scoff, but the truth is that no one who's signed up for it can ever free themselves from its grasp, nor their personal information from its database.

I'm not sure what clearer example of Authoritarian behavior I could give. The only thing that makes it like summer camp is that a lot of people still seem to like it for the sense of group camaraderie its membership instills, despite its ever-encroaching and heavy-handed tactics. In that sense, its appeals to group happiness aren't too different from that of any communist party.

I watched you over several threads act as if I were talking about concentration camps, or making some absolutist moral judgment on the site or its users. I did none of those things. My point was that group thinking leads to moral equivocation, tolerance for authoritarianism and overall civic rot, and that we're better off if more off-beat, free thinking, smart people decline their invitation to this behemoth, or burn it in effigy. There's no need for a universal agreement on the nature of positive v. negative freedom for this rejection to go forward... and the fact that you chose to misinterpret the most basic of my references, "camp", to mean a nazi death camp, most likely means you either didn't read what I wrote or you were trolling.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#214

Post by woobar » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 1:06 AM UTC

neilk wrote: post #155

coffeemug wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a world of difference between citizens complaining how their governments are corrupt, and husbands complaining how their wives boss them around. The former is a macro problem - if you're unhappy there's very little you can do to make a difference, you really need everyone to get behind your cause but because of weird behavioral science quirks this happens very rarely. The latter is a micro problem - learn to…

> It's entirely within your control to limit the information you give them, carefully select privacy settings Except Facebook unilaterally changes its guarantees about privacy, year after year, always in its own favor. This takes you up to 2010: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/04/facebook-timeline In 2011 and 2012, they further codified how your private information is also subject to what your friends do. Some of…

Actually, 'information you give them' is always within your control.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#215

Post by Baba_Chaghaloo » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 1:08 AM UTC

3143 wrote: post #123

noduerme wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I'm on FB, and Joe X sends me a friend request, it goes in my email. Since I'm on FB, the implicit assumption is that I got the request. If I think Joe is nice enough, but not really my friend, I'm suddenly forced to (a) accept a friend who's not my friend, and imply I like him more than I do, (b) reject the request and make him think I don't like him, or (c) lie and say I don't get facebook emails. In reality,…

If the freedom you are most concerned about losing is the freedom to lead other people into believing they are your friends when you really don't care about them, you might be a sociopath.

Maybe he wants to be nice? Facebook fails at nice, that's mostly why I quit. Seems the guy who made it is probably a bit of a sociopath, your only two options are "Friend!" or "Fuck off!" and I think that contributes a lot to the general loathing of the site.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#216

Post by bmelton » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 1:09 AM UTC

aasarava wrote: post #204

charlieok wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tried camping and it was awesome. It was fun getting a group together and having a lot of interaction with them. Working on projects together, sharing gossip at meals and in tents, going on day trips and coming back with pictures and stories. Great stuff. People who spend time camping together share a bond and become potential lifelong friends. When camping was new, relatively few people went camping. The most ex…

If camping is a metaphor for social interaction, then wouldn't picking up the phone, or writing a letter, or sending an email, or a text, or driving over to your friends' houses and saying, "Hey, let's go to a coffee shop" be the real camping you're looking for? You're setting up a zero sum analogy, assuming that everyone is so busy on Facebook that they no longer interact or share photos/jokes/memes in other ways. N…

Wouldn't all those other interactions equate to all the time you aren't camping?

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#217

Post by Baba_Chaghaloo » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 1:20 AM UTC

fudged wrote: post #143

noduerme wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this dark, disturbing, and terrifying. As a never-was, non-social-media user... I'm only 31... 5 years ago, I felt like I couldn't understand kids who were a few years younger than me. Now I feel like there's a total rupture between my mode of being and that of almost everyone else. When I give you my attention, I'm giving it to you . Completely. I don't multitask people. And you know I want to talk to you, be…

whose apparent sense of inadequacy and misunderstanding of the nature of personal relationships are written large across every aspect of that system I believe the contrary is true. Facebook is successful because Zuckerberg et al understand social ties to the point where they have locked people into their system, got them to interact more, provide all their private information, and then profit off them by serving them…

Yeah Zuckerberg understood social ties the same way Karl Rove understood politics but that doesn't make it good. Exclusivity, ostracization and social cliques are part of our nature but are definitely on the dark side. I'd like to somehow know how many people made friends on facebook compared to how many have lost friends, husbands, wives, etc.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#218

Post by polynomial » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 1:20 AM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #149

noduerme wrote: post #10

When I was a kid, my parents sent me to camp, even though all I wanted to do was sit home and write text adventures in BASIC. I hated camp. I hated the kids, and the counselors, and most of all I hated how everyone acted like if you didn't like it, if you weren't having fun, then there was something messed up about you . Facebook = camp. The most oppressive and authoritarian thing about it is, at root, that most peop…

There is a world of difference between citizens complaining how their governments are corrupt, and husbands complaining how their wives boss them around. The former is a macro problem - if you're unhappy there's very little you can do to make a difference, you really need everyone to get behind your cause but because of weird behavioral science quirks this happens very rarely. The latter is a micro problem - learn to…

> "Consider that many people don't see Facebook as a privacy issue once they've weighed everything carefully and not because they're idiots."

I'm not so sure about that. I'm reminded of the recent article & hubbub about the "Girls Around Me" app. My takeaway from that was while people are aware they are exposing all their information, they are ignorant of the myriad consequences and implications until they are directly confronted with them.

And in many of the scenarios the Cassandras are warning about, those moments of realisation tend to be past the point of rescue.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#219

Post by ShirtlessRod » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 1:35 AM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #149

noduerme wrote: post #10

When I was a kid, my parents sent me to camp, even though all I wanted to do was sit home and write text adventures in BASIC. I hated camp. I hated the kids, and the counselors, and most of all I hated how everyone acted like if you didn't like it, if you weren't having fun, then there was something messed up about you . Facebook = camp. The most oppressive and authoritarian thing about it is, at root, that most peop…

There is a world of difference between citizens complaining how their governments are corrupt, and husbands complaining how their wives boss them around. The former is a macro problem - if you're unhappy there's very little you can do to make a difference, you really need everyone to get behind your cause but because of weird behavioral science quirks this happens very rarely. The latter is a micro problem - learn to…

In the same post you manage to call people who don't like Facebook "weird" and "behavioral outliers" while simultaneously saying it's all their fault because they endlessly go on about how they don't like Facebook.

What about those who say nothing about it, yet still need to tolerate people like you calling them a "behavioral outlier"?

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#220

Post by grepherder » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 1:38 AM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #61

So am I the only person who thinks this characterization of facebook as a "parasite" or a "disease" is meaningless, useless hyperbole? Facebook isn't any more of a "parasite" than email.

I'm not taking any sides on this, but yours is another hyperbole, Facebook is definitely not as harmless as email. If every email from everyone around the world went through the same company, and they could data mine it as they wished, then they would be on equal terms.