Live data from Hacker News

Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

nme.com

321–330 of 371 posts

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#321
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting how they render the date, there will be players in the UK who will see that and think they can use their controllers until the 11th of December. I don't know why they didn't just use "12th of November, 2023"

That assumes it renders the same in all locales. Most likely it doesn’t.

Even if they do something locale-specific, Microsoft has a knack for fucking specifically dates up. For me Windows keeps falling back to using the backwards US way even though I keep correcting it to use the international way. I think this is because I prefer the US keyboard layout (I've no need for a GBP sign above the three, hash is much more useful), something causes that to leak out.

Also even if they have that nailed, it's still no guarantee. I'm not an Xbox owner but presumably you have a profile with a region (for payments/billing, tax etc) and a selected language. I'd be willing to bet a lot of Brits, Canadians or Aussies have selected "English (US)" language without really thinking through.

We'll see, but I think there will be quite a few confused people in a couple of weeks time regardless.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#322
post #74

This is a money grab with the polish of a pro-gamer cheat-cleanup. Why do I say that? Microsoft can fix most of the 'cheats' that a software controller can implement in software. Auto-fire is trivial to detect, as is a KBM setup where it doesn't belong. Out of the ordinary joystick characteristics/speed/hysteresis/range would make it obvious to them which controllers are aftermarket if they cared to disallow them aft…

I disagree with this take. If a small percentage of users still cheat / have an unfair advantage after this move, it’s still a win for Microsoft because they’ve significantly decreased that pool of people to the point that average players probably won’t encounter them often, and they’ve done it without incurring additional development costs.

In my view this is clearly a move intended to solidify brand trust.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think even most cheaters will claim it's a fightstick adapter in particular?

Every cheater will buy a cheating peripheral, and then go around saying how it isn’t all that much of an advantage, and how they don’t even need it, and have some story how they got it for some other reason entirely and certainly not for the reasons stated on the box. And then continue using it. The poster claims to somehow know how much of an advantage it is. Wonder how that knowledge was acquired? I am sure that to…

> Every cheater will buy a cheating peripheral, and then go around saying how it isn’t all that much of an advantage, and how they don’t even need it, and have some story how they got it for some other reason entirely and certainly not for the reasons stated on the box.

I don't think that's true at all!

> The poster claims to somehow know how much of an advantage it is. Wonder how that knowledge was acquired? I am sure that too was perfectly innocent and just “that one time”.

They didn't even say they tested it online.

And you're making a claim that's impossible to disprove. Oh if they say they cheat regularly, they cheat regularly, and if they say they tried it out of curiosity, they're lying and they cheat regularly.

> Then why all the hand-wringing about these cheats getting blocked?

Because it's going to get blocked in all situations. Single player? Blocked. Fighting games? Blocked. Games with friends? Blocked.

They're not blocking cheats, they're blocking the controller itself. (If the block works on this model.)

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#324
post #74

This is a money grab with the polish of a pro-gamer cheat-cleanup. Why do I say that? Microsoft can fix most of the 'cheats' that a software controller can implement in software. Auto-fire is trivial to detect, as is a KBM setup where it doesn't belong. Out of the ordinary joystick characteristics/speed/hysteresis/range would make it obvious to them which controllers are aftermarket if they cared to disallow them aft…

> Auto-fire is trivial to detect

Tell me you've never worked on an anti-cheat without saying you've never worked on an anti-cheat.....

Why do you even say this if you really don't know it?

In short - you don't want false positives with anti-cheat, you can tolerate some false negatives. Input timings and sequences are impossible to use for this, as button mashers (it's a pseudo-sport) can press buttons at up to 20 times a second - far faster than auto-fire would. Regularity of presses just takes care of the most obvious auto-fire, but once again - there isn't a clear human-robot threshold. And most auto-fire will be far on the human side.

So you normally use a composite or layered approach. If there are enough signals of cheating on layer 1, you do more thorough checks on layer 2, 3, etc. The higher layers can be other players watching replays, ML, behavior-matching, and so on. Layer 1 can be "too lucky" checks, speed checks, ESP (extra-sensory perception/clairvoyance), altered memory, data packet manipulation, suspicious IPs, honey trap code paths/memory locations/impossible game states, skill inconsistencies, stupid values written into obfuscated memory, etc. All of those, by the way, have significant false positives on a large scale. But higher layers are almost always heuristics-based (human or machine), and with high false positives. So all together - not good, not easy.

KM setup is easier to detect as there are certain expectations such a set-up must meet for the user, which are a different set of expectations from a controller. But it's still harder than one might think. Analog triggers can be simulated, noise can be introduced in smooth mouse movement, button presses that aren't feasible on a controller can be disabled on the keyboard, etc. Once again - the issue is with false positives. You don't want to ban a person because they play the game more "cheatey" naturally than the hardware that fakes it.

Tamper-proof hardware with an auth mechanism is a really elegant solution for near 0% false positives. You can't mod a controller if you can't open it.

And I suspect that players wouldn't mind buying such hardware if it put them in authenticated/cheat-free lobbies.

What Microsoft might doing here is a slightly different topic. All I am saying is that anti-cheat is really not what you're saying it is.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

macro controllers and AI controller inputs are a thing and are actually rampant in certain games. Just look on youtube for some of the Street Fighter 6 cheat videos that have popped up in the last few weeks. Also if you play games like Apex, Valorant, etc, there are macro controllers that will not only perform movement tricks for you but will do things like correct aim for automatic fire drift/spread or even (on PC)…

I agree with what you're saying except for the Escape From Tarkov bit. They are in a real pickle. They have a live service game they sold at a fixed price without any of the typical live service game monetization methods. Battlestate games has no incentive to actually ban RMT and cheaters when they are first detected because a ban too quickly will break the economic model of the RMT cheaters. Who, once banned, will b…

I think you're proving my point. Cheating is understood to be so rampant in the game at this point that legitimate players have backed off.

The wiggle video was catastrophic.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, maybe I'm biased here as a PC gamer who frequently uses a controller... but why not just allow both? Some games like Gears of War on Xbox already do this. Others, like Fortnite, offer crossplay and just show a symbol over each player's head. Do mouse and keyboard players have an advantage? Sure. So do players with bigger TVs or Series X graphics or less worn controllers or the Elite controller. Big deal? The PC e…

Problem is a lot of games give controllers aim-assist, and using one of these devices means the game still sees your input device as a controller so you get that aim-assist but you also get the benefits of using a mouse.

Just ban those from multiplayer then

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#327
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't get it. I genuinely don't get it. If you're cheating, you're not winning; the software or hardware is. What is the point? What do people get from this?

Some people are just shitty. There are scammers, rapists, etc. Everywhere. Video games cheaters are just the scummiest people online.

I wouldn't go that far. you've got blackmailers, scammers, child pornographers, blackhats, ad-tech, etc

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#328
Never let a crisis go to waste. An increasing number of console players are complaining about devices like the XIM4 being used to cheat or otherwise provide an unfair advantage. So now Microsoft can claim credit for fighting that while also increasing the number of first party or licensed hardware they sell seems win/win from their perspective I'm sure.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#329
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm competitive. I simply won't play FPS that have aim assist in multiplayer. If a controller has a disadvantage to KBM, they should learn to use KBM, not give them a built-in aimbot.

This is such a PCMR elitist take. Have you ever actually played on console? By and large aim assist is very subtle, but it's required to have an enjoyable experience on console. I don't think I could bear to spend ~ 10h / day at a computer, and then spend my down time hunched over a keyboard and mouse. I like a clean break, and a completely different experience. You're welcome to be as 'competitive' as you like, but…

Games should be fun, but I do think competitive modes should have separate lobbies/ranks/queues for MKB and controller (maybe per-controller, if they're different enough).

Aim assist is a big change to a game to me because it necessarily introduces an opinion about how much assistance controller users deserve into the equation.

I get that controllers are not as precise of an input mechanism as mice, but how much worse? How much does having aim assist allow you to play a style that PC players can't? E.g. some implementations of aim assist make quick scoping very strong.

It also just feels really crappy to watch a kill cam and know that if you had done the same thing, you would have missed because no aim assist. The reasons why make sense, it's not a logical thing, but it does feel bad. I would imagine dying to KBM flicks feels equally bad for controller players.

I do think aim assist should exist for controllers, I just don't think it should co-exist with KBM in the same matches in competitive modes. Console players don't seem to like having KBM players in their matches either, so that seems like a win-win.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

macro controllers and AI controller inputs are a thing and are actually rampant in certain games. Just look on youtube for some of the Street Fighter 6 cheat videos that have popped up in the last few weeks. Also if you play games like Apex, Valorant, etc, there are macro controllers that will not only perform movement tricks for you but will do things like correct aim for automatic fire drift/spread or even (on PC)…

I just don't get it. I genuinely don't get it. If you're cheating, you're not winning; the software or hardware is. What is the point? What do people get from this?

Case: I'm a 65 year-old retiree who's reaction speed is slow, but I want to play the game so I can relate to my grandson, and getting dominated left and right isn't keeping my interest.

Case: I'm a 16 year-old with low self-esteem who wants to show off an impressive k/d rate when I play with my friends, so I boost those numbers when we're not playing together.

Case: I'm an arbitrary player who has 5,000 hours in the game, of which no stone is left unturned. I cheat in order to get longevity out of the game and to make it novel in a new way.

Post reply on HN