Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#281

Post by Mezzie » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:15 PM UTC

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #202

stewx wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligence and knowledge are two different things. An uneducated person may be highly intelligent but have little knowledge.

ok - in that case: when I switched to a white collar job suddenly all the world's knowledge was unlocked in my brain, and I knew the meaning of all these terms that had heretofore been opaque to me.

Those with the capacity and inclination to learn such things (meaning academic theory and systems) who are born into working class communities or families are heavily encouraged to leave the working class behind and cut ties. The working class communities are intellectually strip mined, and the kids quickly learn their only chance at success relies very much on learning to hide where they came from unless they're trotting it out for sympathy points/scholarships, in which case you need to talk about your background but make clear that you've ~ transcended it. As a result the only people left in the working class as adults are those who couldn't learn academic theory.

Some exceptions I've seen are people like my mother who grew up higher-class but 'defected'. Another exception is occasional disabled members of the working class.

It has nothing to do with the intelligence or ability of the working class as a population and everything to do with the fact that people in that class who have certain abilities and types of intelligence are offered a way out that others aren't. (e.g. A mechanical genius is less likely to get this treatment than a kid reading several grades ahead ).

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#282

Post by derivative7 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:17 PM UTC

jlos wrote: post #258

neilk wrote: post #106

Let’s consider the contrary. Do poor people sometimes hold highly questionable beliefs, promulgated by institutions, and does professing these beliefs in expensive and flamboyant ways confer status? Religion ticks all these boxes. In some contexts, so does patriotism, racism, worship of the military, publicly dumping cases of Bud Light, etc etc etc. In some ways, even disdain for education is a sort of expensive stat…

> Religion ticks all these boxes Regular participation in religious services is of the most beneficial activities a person can do for their mental health. I'm not saying this as a platitude, but as a well documented observed phenomenom [0][1]. To the point, I regularly see studies on benefits to those who regularly attend religious services and have never seen a study showing any adverse affects from it. That is not…

Correlation does not imply causation

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#283

Post by jasonladuke0311 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:18 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #215

fieldcny wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The fact is worrying and getting angry about things like cultural appropriation is something one can only do if they have the time and energy to. Most laborers are too concerned about being able to pay their bills, provide for their dependents and too tired from difficult labor to get that upset about a Chinese Basketball player wearing dreads.

And yet they have energy to freak out about homosexuality.

Who is “they?” Are you suggesting that all laborers are homophobic?

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#284

Post by notaustinpowers » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:20 PM UTC

erkt wrote: post #274

notaustinpowers wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the comments I see kinda get to the point, but not all the way. I've grown up in a fairly liberal part of the southern US, with a high African American population so these are the kind of conversations I encounter fairly often. Cultural appropriation is widely understood to be when someone in a position of power (most commonly a white person) utilizes something that is heavily related or socially seen as "par…

Seems like a fancy way to argue that it’s ethical to discriminate against white people because there is a historical debt to settle. Laying claim to culture is dumb, but everyone wants to feel special. One’s culture is less at risk from appropriation than from extinction as the world continues to trend towards an internet transmitted monoculture.

Also, not sure what discrimination against white people over a historical debt you're referring to. The appropriation statement is specifically about how a significant aspects of certain cultures are repressed in modern American society, but when they are utilized by the majority (in America, white Americans), they're celebrated as fashionable or acceptable.

Laying claim to culture is dumb? That's kinda how things have been for the past thousands of years. A lot of these cultures have existed longer than many modern countries have. Yes, they do have risks from a cultural extinction, but watering a culture down or disconnecting it from it's roots doesn't save it from extinction. If anything, it advances that. Having people of that culture continue their cultural practices and protecting those practices, helps ensure that culture continues on.

Yes, there can be an internet monoculture, but everyone is part of some subculture. And the subculture is what is being protected. These cultures have existed for hundreds or thousands of years, and they carry historical importance in understanding history and the evolution of society.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#285

Post by hnbad » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:21 PM UTC

JanSt wrote: post #132

indigo945 wrote: post #101

> When I was growing up in foster homes, or making minimum wage as a > dishwasher, or serving in the military, I never heard words like “cultural > appropriation” or “gendered” or “heteronormative.” > > Working class people could not tell you what these terms mean. But if you > visit an elite university, you’ll find plenty of affluent people who will > eagerly explain them to you. I figured out as soon as I saw the l…

cultural appropriation As a european, I just can't wrap my head around this. How is it racist if I like a food of an other culture so much I cook it? Or I like a hairstyle of different culture so I also want to wear it. Or clothes. Or making music. Or.... I mean, I admire all that stuff so much that I want it to be part of my life. How is this racist?

As a European, the closest you can usually get to this is when an American company decides to take your local custom or tradition and commercialize it without any understanding of its context. As a German the closest approximation is "Oktoberfest" which usually condenses all of Germany into an extremely tourist-y idea of Bavaria, but of course this is hard to even notice anymore because "we" are doing it to "ourselves": a lot of money is made by German companies selling "Oktoberfest" as a tourist-y fabrication.

Now compare that with Hawai'i: instead of locals profitting of the local culture, Hawai'i was a kingdom colonized by the US and most of the tourism is done by mainland US companies rather than locals. The locals stand by as not only their land is sold off to rich Americans piece by piece but so is their culture and heritage. Religious traditions become scenary, sacred symbols become decoration and so on.

It's not immoral to take inspiration from foreign food, music, architecture, dress or traditions and weave them into your own (or even lift them wholesale). But this isn't about an individual act, it's about something happening in a very one-sided power relation where the more powerful side not simply copies the original but replicates it out of context and then (intentionally or non) uses their power to popularize their hollow replica to the point that it replaces the authentic original and that original context is lost.

Much like "racist" it's really more about the predisposition of a system towards emergent outcomes than individual belief or intent.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#286

Post by qup » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:24 PM UTC

indigo945 wrote: post #103

croisillon wrote: post #98

"a vulnerable poor person in a crime-ridden neighborhood can’t afford to support defunding the police" [citation needed because the vulnerable poor person is police's first target]

Agreed; the article completely skirts the obvious point that the Black Lives Matter movement was not founded by upper-class white students at an urban college, but by working-class black people who are directly affected by the issue at hand.

Where are those founders now?

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#287

Post by subjectsigma » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:24 PM UTC

zigman1 wrote: post #170

subjectsigma wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://youtu.be/lsw3pdpxf64?si=Nm9jNS9jeqR9eQA4

What are you trying to say? I can also cherry-pick one of numerous alt right people storming cities with guns and assault rifles, calling for violence.

> no one is screaming to shot or lynch anyone

> no one is screaming to … lynch anyone

> no one

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#288

Post by pipes » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #222

JanSt wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cultural appropriation As a european, I just can't wrap my head around this. How is it racist if I like a food of an other culture so much I cook it? Or I like a hairstyle of different culture so I also want to wear it. Or clothes. Or making music. Or.... I mean, I admire all that stuff so much that I want it to be part of my life. How is this racist?

The term "cultural appropriation" has been widely misused and diluted by people who don't really understand it. If I, a white man living in upstate NY, were to don Haudenosaunee ritual gear and record myself performing a traditional dance of theirs, that would be cultural appropriation. It refers to a dominant culture taking the trappings of a colonized or otherwise marginalized culture and using them for entertainme…

Who gets to decide if it's disrespectful? Making fun of religious practices is a god given right!

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#289

Post by test6554 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

automatic6131 wrote: post #152

gizmo wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is pretty incendiary so I won't go through it point by point, but I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police. Abolishing the police altogether is more of a utopian goal and very few people think society can function today without some kind of police. That said, the typical day-to-day work for a police officer doesn't require violence or the thr…

> I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police You are playing the Motte and Bailey[1] tactic perfectly. You say that defunding means only "demilitarizing", which many people would probably agree with. But when put into practise, it's never that. I mean, you don't need to delve very far into academia or lefty twitter to find extremist people saying exactly th…

"I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police"

I'd like to emphasize the distinction between your definitions of these words and the actual definitions of these words...

abolish - formally put an end to

defund - prevent (a group or organization) from continuing to receive funds

demilitarize - remove all military forces from (an area)

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#290

Post by thisgoesnowhere » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:32 PM UTC

noch wrote: post #125

thisgoesnowhere wrote: post #120

> A survey from YouGov found that Americans in the highest income category were by far the most supportive of defunding the police. > They can afford to hold this position, because they already live in safe, often gated communities. And they can afford to hire private security. This isn't what defund the police was about at all and is just a strawman to stop inquisitions into the actual point of the defund the police…

> Defund the police was never a anarcho communist feel good movement despite what articles like this will guide you believe. In this article titled, "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police": "Enough. We can’t reform the police. The only way to diminish police violence is to reduce contact between the public and the police." https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol... ( https://archive.is/H293i…

Do you think the majority of the people who say defund the police believe that?

Just because a minority of people have a terrible opinion doesn't mean the entire movement does.

Also even the author doesn't believe they can actually abolish the police.

> I’ve been advocating the abolition of the police for years. Regardless of your view on police power — whether you want to get rid of the police or simply to make them less violent — here’s an immediate demand we can all make: Cut the number of police in half and cut their budget in half. Fewer police officers equals fewer opportunities for them to brutalize and kill people. The idea is gaining traction in Minneapolis, Dallas, Los Angeles and other cities.