Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#231

Post by chongli » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:33 PM UTC

cmcaleer wrote: post #214

chongli wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When have zeitgeist moments like that ever led to thoughtful, sober, laser-focused and effective reforms? In my experience, reform takes years and decades to build a consensus. You can’t “catch lightning in a bottle” and call it a day.

The civil rights movement, #MeToo, the Berlin Wall, the world post-2008 crisis, there are probably more that I'm not thinking of, but each of these directly contributed to a better world for those the zeitgeist focussed on in a tangible way. I think the voice of reason did pretty well in these, though unreasonable voices from within movements that made movements look bad to reasonable people existed.

The Civil Rights movement lasted from 1954 to 1968. The Berlin Wall lasted from 1961 to 1989. The #MeToo movement is ongoing and still a long way from achieving its goals.

Not sure what reforms you're referring to with the 2008 crisis. Housing is as unaffordable as ever.

I think your list reinforces my point. You can't achieve meaningful reforms instantaneously. It takes years and decades. The zeitgeist moment might be a catalyst, but focusing on it exclusively ignores all of the work on the ground.

In any case where major reforms are needed, there will always be many people on the other side who need to be convinced (or move on). This takes a long time.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#232

Post by gizmo » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:33 PM UTC

RubberbandSoul wrote: post #205

gizmo wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK police didn't have guns in the early 2000s either. The rise in recorded violent crime can't be explained by something that hasn't changed. You're just trolling now. https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/trends-in-violent-crime/#... .

I'm not trolling. Violent crime necessitates armed law enforcement. While the rise in violent crime isn't caused by unarmed police officers the fact that they are unarmed didn't prohibit the rise in violent crime.

Did you even look at the link I included that disputes that violent crime is trending up at all? Your chart shows that digital cameras have gotten cheap. Not that violent crime has actually gone up.

> The ONS reported that victimisation rates shown by the CSEW have been decreasing in the long term. They peaked in the year ending December 1995, when 4.7% of adults were a victim of violent crime. Rates have remained below 2% since the year ending March 2014.

> In contrast to the downward trend shown by the CSEW, the ONS highlighted that police recorded violent crime increased between the years ending March 2013 and March 2022. The ONS explained that these increases are thought to be driven by improvements in police recording practices

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#233

Post by philwelch » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #138

indigo945 wrote: post #101

> When I was growing up in foster homes, or making minimum wage as a > dishwasher, or serving in the military, I never heard words like “cultural > appropriation” or “gendered” or “heteronormative.” > > Working class people could not tell you what these terms mean. But if you > visit an elite university, you’ll find plenty of affluent people who will > eagerly explain them to you. I figured out as soon as I saw the l…

[flagged]

I can assure you that understanding woke buzzwords does not actually make you more intelligent. Usually the opposite.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#234

Post by philwelch » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

thfuran wrote: post #186

littlestymaar wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are the one missing the point: it's not that this post has a conservative bias (every text necessarily has these kinds of bias, and that's fine). The problem with this post is that it is only here as an argument against liberal ideas that he doesn't like, and as such it's entirely driven by bad faith. Then sure there may be some elements of truth sprinkled every now and then, but every piece of propaganda…

>it is only here as an argument against liberal ideas that he doesn't like, and as such it's entirely driven by bad faith. Are you suggesting that it is inherently bad faith to argue against a position that one doesn't like?

No, he’s saying it’s inherently bad faith to be conservative.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#235

Post by dagw » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:37 PM UTC

j7ake wrote: post #177

denton-scratch wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Private jets, yachts, personal cooks and butlers are truer symbols of the upper class. Those are all signs of wealth; most classy people would actively avoid them, even if they're wealthy. I'm from the UK; I suspect that in the USA, it's easier to raise your social class by simply spending money. Here, social class by default is inherited. It's reinforced by where you went to school. Most people of high social clas…

Are you saying the upper class in UK eg the royal family actively avoids flying private and making their own breakfast and doing their own laundry? Or is the royal family not classy? Would be happy to hear examples of upper class UK people who still do their own laundry and flies coach.

Class and wealth are entirely separate in the UK. There are lot of of upper class class people without a lot of wealth. Most of them don't have butlers and private jets and many of them no doubt do their own laundry and fly coach.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#236

Post by philwelch » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:40 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #179

automatic6131 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police You are playing the Motte and Bailey[1] tactic perfectly. You say that defunding means only "demilitarizing", which many people would probably agree with. But when put into practise, it's never that. I mean, you don't need to delve very far into academia or lefty twitter to find extremist people saying exactly th…

I would argue you find that kind of left wing extremist exclusively on twitter and at the fringes of academia. They have no power and are not taken very seriously.

You also find them published in the New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#237

Post by littlestymaar » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:42 PM UTC

thfuran wrote: post #186

littlestymaar wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are the one missing the point: it's not that this post has a conservative bias (every text necessarily has these kinds of bias, and that's fine). The problem with this post is that it is only here as an argument against liberal ideas that he doesn't like, and as such it's entirely driven by bad faith. Then sure there may be some elements of truth sprinkled every now and then, but every piece of propaganda…

>it is only here as an argument against liberal ideas that he doesn't like, and as such it's entirely driven by bad faith. Are you suggesting that it is inherently bad faith to argue against a position that one doesn't like?

No, but if you disguise your criticism as sociological analysis while hiding under the rug the obvious parts of the analysis that wouldn't fit your narrative, then it's fair to say that's bad faith.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#238

Post by sneed_chucker » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:43 PM UTC

ceasefire wrote: post #213

indigo945 wrote: post #101

> When I was growing up in foster homes, or making minimum wage as a > dishwasher, or serving in the military, I never heard words like “cultural > appropriation” or “gendered” or “heteronormative.” > > Working class people could not tell you what these terms mean. But if you > visit an elite university, you’ll find plenty of affluent people who will > eagerly explain them to you. I figured out as soon as I saw the l…

Pretty sure working class people suppress "fancy words". A fella could get mistaken for a "fairy" or maybe even get a beatin'. It's like how mothers used to chip in to enforce gender inequality their daughters suffered. It is a defeatist mindset, that is culturally enforced and learned from bitter lessons of the reality of power balance and dynamics in society. edit: like many here at my development stage (middleclas…

> Pretty sure working class people suppress "fancy words". A fella could get mistaken for a "fairy" or maybe even get a beatin'.

> And that raises the question of whether it is in fact required (as a sort of petite-bourgois-oblige) for those of us who are comfortable with "fancy words" to do the talking for the otherwise encumbered oppressed?

I honestly cannot tell if this is a serious comment. I hope not.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#239

Post by denton-scratch » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:43 PM UTC

j7ake wrote: post #177

denton-scratch wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Private jets, yachts, personal cooks and butlers are truer symbols of the upper class. Those are all signs of wealth; most classy people would actively avoid them, even if they're wealthy. I'm from the UK; I suspect that in the USA, it's easier to raise your social class by simply spending money. Here, social class by default is inherited. It's reinforced by where you went to school. Most people of high social clas…

Are you saying the upper class in UK eg the royal family actively avoids flying private and making their own breakfast and doing their own laundry? Or is the royal family not classy? Would be happy to hear examples of upper class UK people who still do their own laundry and flies coach.

The royal family is rather an extreme example; they are classy as well as being powerful and wealthy. They royals are the epitome of aristocracy; people descended from kings and peers of the realm are a small minority of the upper class.

Sometimes classy people fall on hard times; so yes, they make their own breakfast. But they don't lose their class.

Flying coach is also an extreme example; anyone who can afford business class avoids flying sardine-grade. And it's mostly business people that zoom around in private jets; those denote wealth and power, not class.

You can "upgrade" your class, sometimes; a commission in a "good" army regiment can get you upgraded. They train their officers in how to behave in classy company. Public schools serve the same purpose, but are less effective.

I'm not familiar with the domestic arrangements of any upper-class people, so I can't give you examples you asked for. But for the most part, they're not famous, so you wouldn't have heard of them anyway; after all, famous people can trade their fame for wealth. I've known quite a few people of class who had to work for a living, e.g. as teachers.

[Edit] OK, well-known example: Princess Diana (Diana Spencer). Until she hitched up with the Prince of Wales, she was a nursery teacher, and lived in shared accomodation (i.e. no servants). Of course, she was never stuck for a penny or two; the Spencers are a wealthy, aristocratic family.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#240

Post by CM30 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:44 PM UTC

surrTurr wrote: post #114

On the point of success and the rich believing it is just luck whilst the working-class beliefs it's hard work: Maybe both is true. Becoming successful in working class jobs often *does* require hard work, whilst becoming successful in upper-class jobs depends more on other factors such as luck. For example, to become a great construction worker, you need physical strength, stamina, and a strong work ethic, as the jo…

My experience is usually the opposite to be honest. When I look on any forum or social network dedicated to an art form/creative form, it's usually the rich and successful saying how it's all about skill and how their hard work got them there, while it's the poorer, unsuccessful folks talking about luck.

This fits very well with the idea of a self serving bias, where people take credit for their successes and pass off their failures as the fault of external influences:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-serving_bias

Which makes sense to me. If you're successful, it must feel horrible to think about how you might not deserve your current status, and how so many equally talented/hard working folks failed miserably in similar circumstances. While if you're unsuccessful, thinking that maybe you just suck and deserve your situation must feel equally miserable.