People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds • Hacker News Board

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#231

Post by RoyalHenOil » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 3:54 AM UTC

graphe wrote: post #144

>The study was published this week in the October issue of Autism Research and created with collaborators from the University of Toronto. The research participants -- employed individuals, 33 with autism and 34 neurotypical -- were asked to weigh in on hypothetical scenarios involving everything from inefficiencies to inequalities to quality concerns. It's a survey of 67 people. Could have been online even. Nothing I…

Sample size is a red herring. If the difference is big and stark enough, you can detect it even in a MUCH smaller sample than this. You only need a big sample if the difference you are looking for is subtle.

Mind you, this is assuming that the sample has been taken in an unbiased manner (nigh impossible in a voluntary survey like this) and that any conclusions you draw are applied only to the population you took the sample from (e.g., if your sample is undergrad psychology students at a particular university, your results apply only to undergrad psychology students at that particular university, not to the general population).

The issue is not the sample size. It's the sampling method. Even if you do a study on 1 billion people, your are liable to get an incorrect result if you don't take the sample correctly.

Of course, the other issue here is that we are claiming something that the study didn't actually cover. The researchers did not look at whether the subjects succumbed to the bystander effect or not: they just looked at how the subjects answered questions. These are two extremely different things! This is bad experiment design.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#232

Post by RoyalHenOil » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:01 AM UTC

golergka wrote: post #197

lucubratory wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am autistic as well and what you are saying makes no sense to me. When someone is in need around me and requires help, by definition they need help and are not currently receiving it, which is an injustice and unfair. Therefore I have to remedy the injustice, therefore I have to help. That is how I experience the autistic sense of justice. How are you reconciling that contradiction?

Why do you perceive somebody who needs held and requires it as injustice? Helping others is an ethical thing, the right thing to do, but never an obligation that we owe them.

They probably have a high degree of empathy and feel intrinsically moved to make ethical decisions. Autistic people can have high empathy or low empathy, just like anyone else.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#233

Post by RoyalHenOil » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:05 AM UTC

aeyes wrote: post #157

omginternets wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often remarked (informally) that autistic people seem to operate under the assumption that the explicitly-stated rules are the actual rules. "Help others in need" would be the go-to example of how this confusion(?) can lead to a positive outcome.

As a person on the spectrum "help others in need" is actually a very difficult concept because I don't really care about them. When something happens around me where I'm not directly involved my instinct is to ignore it or to get out of the situation so that I can go on with my life. The only difference is when I see unfairness or injustice, then I feel like I have to do something about it. But it usually isn't about…

This is likely due to you having low empathy, which is orthogonal to autism (although it may contribute to a lesser ability to mask and therefore a higher likelihood of diagnosis).

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#234

Post by penjelly » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:21 AM UTC

permo-w wrote: post #154

wkat4242 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you mean. I remember one time I got off the plane in Italy and I was walking with my girlfriend to customs. At one point we branched off from all the other passengers and she was like "hey we're going the wrong way, everyone is heading there". And I said nope this is the EU passengers exit, look at the sign. She couldn't believe it was right because the plane was full of others from our EU country. All th…

this effect seems to be especially true in airports. they seem to particularly inspire dumb herd behaviour. perhaps there's an increase in perceived danger leading to a stronger desire for safety in numbers? another example: queueing to board the plane. other than to fit in, why on earth would I stand there and compete to spend more time in a sweaty uncomfortable seat packed with 400 other people? plus, if you get on…

or maybe people are in a new place and processing a totally foreign environment? Maybe theyre stressed/tired from flying? Not thinking because theyre in a rush? Its not that hard to find reasons for why people might make mistakes in an airport.

> another example: queueing to board the plane. other than to fit in, why on earth would I stand there and compete to spend more time in a sweaty uncomfortable seat packed with 400 other people? plus, if you get on last, you can take advantage of empty rows before anyone else

what? people are following direction, and the way the plane boards is actually important to how fast it loads, so youre messing with that because its a mild convenience to you and you consider that intelligent behaviour?

cpg grey has a video on this i suggest you take a look https://youtu.be/oAHbLRjF0vo?si=jv00xanestDfodPt

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#235

Post by DiggyJohnson » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:22 AM UTC

permo-w wrote: post #154

wkat4242 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you mean. I remember one time I got off the plane in Italy and I was walking with my girlfriend to customs. At one point we branched off from all the other passengers and she was like "hey we're going the wrong way, everyone is heading there". And I said nope this is the EU passengers exit, look at the sign. She couldn't believe it was right because the plane was full of others from our EU country. All th…

this effect seems to be especially true in airports. they seem to particularly inspire dumb herd behaviour. perhaps there's an increase in perceived danger leading to a stronger desire for safety in numbers? another example: queueing to board the plane. other than to fit in, why on earth would I stand there and compete to spend more time in a sweaty uncomfortable seat packed with 400 other people? plus, if you get on…

My “rational”answer is that I don’t mind standing, so it’s worth the benefit of guaranteeing space in the overhead bin near my seat, and I like being first to my row.

Plus I almost always have a window seat, so getting there first is the most convenient for myself and my row mates. I don’t do this on flights that don’t seem full.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#236

Post by RoyalHenOil » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:23 AM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #175

Nadya wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like every pit bull owner up until their totally harmless lovely well trained wouldn't harm a fly pit bull snaps and attacks someone or another dog. The leash in public areas is to be able to control your dog. If you want your dog off of the leash go to private property or a dog park where a gated leashless area exists for those willing to assume the risk. I've seen military trained dogs with training worth te…

Yeah, what is it with dog owners who all seem to be clueless about the dangers of an unleashed dog? Is there a psychological disorder to explain this worldview? In my life, 100% of dog owners all think their dog is "well behaved" when many are not. Bizarre.

No one hates unleashed dogs (outside of spaces where it is explicitly permitted) more than responsible dogs owners -- except, I guess, people with dog phobias.

Most adult dogs are not OK with being approached by other dogs they don't know. This is absolutely fine so long as all dogs are leashed, and so long as unleashed dogs are limited to private property and to dog parks (you can just not take your dog there if it doesn't like other dogs).

But then some jackass lets their dog loose in a place when you walking your dog on a leash ("It's OK! My dog is good with other dogs!" they shout while running after their dog making a beeline for yours). It gets in your dog's face, your dog warns it to back off, and then you have a dog fight on your hands -- a fight which your dog has the lower hand in because it's leashed.

It's not uncommon for leashed dogs to be mauled or even killed by loose-leash dogs. This is probably one of the most common scenarios where one dog kills another. Sometimes the leashed dog's owner is mauled or killed trying to protect their dog.

Responsible dog owners are extremely familiar with the hazards posed by off-leash dogs in on-leash-only spaces. Only thoughtless owners think otherwise and should be harshly denounced, but please don't paint ALL dog owners with the same brush when most of them would agree with you.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#237

Post by lmm » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:25 AM UTC

permo-w wrote: post #154

wkat4242 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you mean. I remember one time I got off the plane in Italy and I was walking with my girlfriend to customs. At one point we branched off from all the other passengers and she was like "hey we're going the wrong way, everyone is heading there". And I said nope this is the EU passengers exit, look at the sign. She couldn't believe it was right because the plane was full of others from our EU country. All th…

this effect seems to be especially true in airports. they seem to particularly inspire dumb herd behaviour. perhaps there's an increase in perceived danger leading to a stronger desire for safety in numbers? another example: queueing to board the plane. other than to fit in, why on earth would I stand there and compete to spend more time in a sweaty uncomfortable seat packed with 400 other people? plus, if you get on…

> this effect seems to be especially true in airports. they seem to particularly inspire dumb herd behaviour. perhaps there's an increase in perceived danger leading to a stronger desire for safety in numbers?

There's an increase in potential negative consequences. More people with guns, more chance for "security" to pick on someone they don't like. If you go off on your own and you're right, you don't gain much - if everyone gets on the wrong plane or goes through the wrong gate or what have you, there's not much they can do. If you go off on your own and you're wrong, you might get beaten up, kicked off your flight, held without charge until you dehydrate, banned from the country...

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#238

Post by DiggyJohnson » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:27 AM UTC

grotted wrote: post #184

atleastoptimal wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly that superiority complex may be why neurodivergent people with similar ideas about "normal" people have issues getting along with others, no offense.

What you call a "superiority complex" is the exact attitude neurodivergent people face constantly

You’re arguing that feeling like everyone (or neurotypical people) is mentally disabled is not an example of superiority complex, right?

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#239

Post by lmm » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:29 AM UTC

NeuroCoder wrote: post #149

isaacfrond wrote: post #4

Paper is here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/aur.3012 I'll save you the read, in light of the replication crisis, this is the important bit: 33 autistic participants

They also say "Because of the relatively small sample size, we did not make corrections for multiple comparisons.". I don't think that means this should be dismissed entirely because you accomplish what you can with the data available to you. It's extremely hard to conduct studies of specialized populations and if we waited for the perfect conditions nothing would get done. We should just be careful not to make any s…

> They also say "Because of the relatively small sample size, we did not make corrections for multiple comparisons.".

Do you think this is somehow a point in their defense? Corrections for multiple comparisons reduce the significance numbers of your results; probably they found that if they corrected for multiple comparisons their p-value was above 0.05 and they wouldn't be able to publish their paper, so they undid it. (Alternatively, they were lazy, so they skipped it).

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#240

Post by RoyalHenOil » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 4:30 AM UTC

vlovich123 wrote: post #138

metaphor wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This struck me as so absurdly anti-social with a pinch of blatant dismissal for why certain rules in public spaces exist to begin with that it reads like you're intentionally trolling the parent in bad faith. You know what also doesn't care about the rules of ordered society and the potentially deadly consequences of breaking them? Animals. Disagree? Only a fool spitting into the wind would permit me to unleash my se…

That’s a petty aggressive and condescending response. I have a pretty big dog (GS mix) and she’d likely never be fast enough to catch a squirrel or bird unless she’s lucky (I also trained that response out of her very early on) and she was definitely faster than Dobermans at the park in her prime. Also, even if she did, it’s not like she’s that foreign a concept - dogs are everywhere and squirrels and birds already d…

As a dog lover and lifelong dog owner, keep your fucking dog leashed and away from mine. I will 100% defend my dogs with lethal force if I have to, and I will pursue any legal action I can against you.

Just because you think your dog is OK doesn't mean that other dogs are OK with your dog; they don't know your dog, and I don't know your dog.

I hug my friends, but if a strangers runs up and hugs me, I will interpret that as assault and respond accordingly -- so don't ever let your dog do the canine equivalent of that, because any consequences (and they may be severe) fall entirely on your shoulders.