Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year) • Hacker News Board

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#81

Post by tmarthal » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 12:27 AM UTC

thenduks wrote: post #22

chc wrote: post #19

What's next, "I feel excluded because I'm a naturist"? The author seems to be uncomfortable with drinking and seems to be projecting his discomfort on the people at these conferences. I go to social functions all the time where other people are drinking and I'm not — sometimes it's awkward, sometimes it's great fun anyway (honestly, that's true of dry events too). If that's not his bag, cool, but it's hard to find an…

My actionable suggestions are to distance the event itself from the open bar that occurs afterwards. I definitely don't think people shouldn't drink in general. I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified - I was saying it contributes to a hostile environment for lots of people.

If you've ever been to a conference or a talk where there was no open bar (or even food) scheduled afterwards, everyone just leaves. This is more of an academic thing, so YMMV.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#82

Post by bnferguson » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 1:35 AM UTC

mileszs wrote: post #51

spyderman4g63 wrote: post #49

Alcohol is not the main problem. The lack of professionalism that the attendees have is. You can have a drink or two and still have meaningful conversations, but getting sloshed is just stupid. If you want to get trashed, why waste the money on a conference ticket?

I have been thinking the same thing while reading the article and comments. I haven't been to any of the larger conferences, so I thought I'd keep my mouth shut in case I'm simply missing something. There are a couple monthly tech meetings in Indy that either are at a bar, or go to a bar afterward. I don't recall having seen a single intoxicated person at one of the local events, let alone a majority of the attendees…

Agreed! Hell, at meetups and conferences here in Indy it seems to be tough to even put a dent in a keg (since I bring the Dorkbot one home with me I get a pretty good measure each month). Most barely have a beer.

Even at the larger conferences I've been to (few RailsConfs, and even Ruby on Ales) I can't recall more than a couple people who I would consider intoxicated (and that's just giving the benefit of the doubt, they may have just been odd people), much less the majority.

People have drinks, and talk shop. A few may get silly later on, but those are the few.

Maybe the JS scene is different?

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#83

Post by nknight » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 2:09 AM UTC

chc wrote: post #17

rcfox wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I'll admit to being rather hyperbolic here. However, when you say things like, "This is something that people do." it sounds a lot like you're making a universal statement about people everywhere. Arguments of the type of "well, I've seen lots of people do this" just smell of availability bias. I can't argue that you're wrong, but you haven't given a good enough argument for me to conclude that you're correct.

Are you really questioning that drinking is an enormously popular activity in most of the world? It's pretty common knowledge that drinking is popular, and its popularity is pretty close to universal. For example, according to the World Health Organization, drinkers are the vast majority of the adult population in most developed countries. Drinking as a common social activity is even mentioned in the Bible and other…

Sex is probably at least as common as alcohol consumption. Doesn't that mean it belongs in a professional environment too, then?

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#84

Post by nknight » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 2:11 AM UTC

abernardes wrote: post #45

I've met a bunch of people who don't drink, but are perfectly able to socialize in those situations. It seems to me you're bothered by those few who can't handle liquor, and making a huge generalization about people who drink. No worries, it seems to be a common mistake in those rants. But I have to disagree with the title of your post: You're not being excluded by people who drink. You're excluding yourself.

I share his observations. At one company, I gave up on trying to have any meaningful conversations with anybody on Fridays, because everyone was too fucked up to speak intelligently. This was not a little startup, either.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#85

Post by theorique » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 1:11 PM UTC

pbiggar wrote: post #72

theorique wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - this is largely my own curiosity (nosiness). It's clear that the OP had a very strong objection. This kind of passion doesn't generally emerge from nowhere, so I was curious about what was really driving him. (And I reiterate - if he chooses not to drink, he is of course answerable to no one. His body, his choice.) At the same time, it's fruitful to fish where the fish are. If a person wants to have convers…

> I also agree that one need not be pretending to drink or ashamed of not drinking. Not at all. I use my fake-drink for convenience, to stave off the Nth person asking me why I don't have a beer in my hand or whatever. yet: > I agree - this is largely my own curiosity (nosiness). It seems every single person asks non-drinkers why they don't drink. For me, who doesn't really have a reason, it's just a bit boring. But…

But I imagine if I had a real, or perhaps a painful reason, I wouldn't like to be reminded every time I went to the pub.

Excellent point, and something I had not considered.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#86

Post by nupark2 » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 1:40 PM UTC

pbiggar wrote: post #18

The OP seems to have a real chip on his shoulder about drinking. About half of what the OP said was him putting words in people's mouths (see: "Y U NO DRINK" for an example). This is coming from someone who is also a non-drinker, and who is from a culture in which drinking is almost the only social activity (I'm from Ireland). That actually puts him in the same company as the brogrammers, who think that drinking is s…

I don't know about the OP, but I have a chip on my shoulder about professionalism in the industry, of which the alcohol and brogrammer culture is just a part.

We're on a long, slow slide away from CS and towards hacking out yet-another poorly designed programming language/web framework/whatever, patting ourselves on the back for re-inventing the wheel, and then grabbing some beers.

I'm studiously unimpressed with the quality of candidates, technology, and culture that I've been seeing in recent years.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#87

Post by micahalles » Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 12:10 AM UTC

Drinking is better than playing werewolf.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#88

Post by tillk » Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 4:53 PM UTC

BoredAstronaut wrote: post #60

tillk wrote: post #41

Not sure if I'd paint it so black and white, I think in general I have been in many of these things as well. On both ends – I guess more on the 'I'm getting a drink' one because I agree that after a while there is no reason to stay sober anymore, because everyone else is on their way already. It's either that or go home, which I do frequently as well. But it very much depends on the kind of people I am with – in many…

There is this old-fashioned idea called "professionalism", which seems to have been inadvertently discarded along with dress codes, and of which they were once emblematic. Work is not home, is not friends (wholly), and is most certainly not college (unless it is). I kid myself that if there was a better age, sex and cultural mix in software companies, these kinds of extremes would be tempered. It would be a start. Is…

People are enjoying themselves. It's a matter of personal opinion if this is the kind of environment you want to be in. Maybe sometimes it's out of control and more a frat party than a conference.

For the record, the opposite is probably not what most people want either. And I wouldn't want to work in the opposite environment either.

In the end it's up to the people attending and of course up to the people organizing what they make of it.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#89

Post by DrillBitterMan » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 1:34 PM UTC

It's hard to argue with the points of the author's article. It's very easy, however, to argue with a simplistic misunderstanding of the author's article. Basically, if you think this is about not liking drinking, you are wrong (in my opinion). If, on the other hand, you think this is about exclusion, and tailoring fora for a particular demographic, and then failing to acknowledge that tailoring, then you are correct (in my opinion). The author goes to great lengths to illustrate his point, and then somehow that escapes many of these commentators. That's unfortunate, because that failure detracts from the more fruitful dialogue that could be occurring. Will more reading help? No idea. Will more comments help? I have no idea. Maybe the author's article will resonate with enough people who can make a difference that things will improve.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#90

Post by thenduks » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 1:42 PM UTC

DrillBitterMan wrote: post #89

It's hard to argue with the points of the author's article. It's very easy, however, to argue with a simplistic misunderstanding of the author's article. Basically, if you think this is about not liking drinking, you are wrong (in my opinion). If, on the other hand, you think this is about exclusion, and tailoring fora for a particular demographic, and then failing to acknowledge that tailoring, then you are correct…

Hi there, you definitely hit the nail on the head - at least as far as what I was trying to say. My post was hyperbolic and ranty - mostly on purpose - and I think for some people that didn't help get across my point as they latched onto the literal parts of what I said... Such is life. There has been quite a bit of discussion on the subject since, and that's good enough for me.

Thanks!