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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#291

Post by catlover76 »

nwiswell wrote: post #246
catlover76 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a somewhat fair thing to point out, but it's also a bit thick to think that what people find so objectionable about Israel's retaliation is that it breaks international law or norms or any other such standard. It's about the basic morality of its imposition of collective punishment on the population of Gaza, while of course its population rages incandescently on the collective punishment Hamas sought to inflic…

I entirely agree, and I feel moreover that it's the moral obligation of the United States to use our substantial foreign policy influence with Israel to compel a more humane treatment of Palestinians. Nevertheless when people point out that this is a "genocide" or that Israel is committing "war crimes" I wonder what point is actually being made. If it wasn't against international law, would that make it ok to collect…

People can make an argument that it is a genocide, and there is a reasonable defense that it is not. If, based on the facts, it doesn't seem to you like a genocide, then that's fine, but it's not like there is no rational basis for those assertions.

With war crimes, I recall there being some specific evidence thereof, potentially from the UN. It was brought up during PMQs in Ireland, I think.

> But that logic would've applied to the USA in WWII, so as far as I'm concerned it's not at all elucidating.

I think most of us:

a) Do not think this should prevent us from calling a spade a spade;

b) In any event, can see quite a few differences between the two situations, such as the relative power disparity between the 2 sides in the middle east, the fact that Germany had taken over or was engaged in active hostilities with...most of Europe, etc.

Maybe the US was wrong to bomb Dresden; maybe it was a war crime, and maybe it could have won the war without doing that, and without dropping atomic bombs. But that doesn't mean we have to hesitate before calling out similar crimes in the future just because we live in the US.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#292

Post by jacquesm »

petertodd wrote: post #273
jacquesm wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let's for a moment assume that Israel is successful in eradicating all of Hamas. Unlikely, but for the sake of the argument let's assume that it works. Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. What's to stop a new Hamas to rise again?

> Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. There aren't settlers in Gaza. There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land. On occasion settlers also murder them. But in Gaza the Israeli government forced all the Jews in Gaza to leave when I…

> There aren't settlers in Gaza.

I didn't say the settlement was in Gaza. These things are not as disconnected as you seem to believe.

> There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land.

And what is exactly being done about this?

> On occasion settlers also murder them.

And what is being done about that?

> But in Gaza the Israeli government forced all the Jews in Gaza to leave when Israel deoccupied Gaza in 2005.

They not only forced them to leave: they also demolished the buildings they left behind.

> Like it or not, Israel can easily get another 10 years or so of relative safely even if Hamas rises again simply by blockading Gaza after a successful military operation to exterminate Hamas.

10 years is nothing and again, this is the sort of thinking that keeps on fueling this conflict: you don't need a solution for 10 years, you need one that actually works. And killing large numbers of people rarely solves problems. If anything history should have taught us that.

> Which is a better outcome for Israel than the status quo, where Hamas will likely conduct another massacre of Israeli's in the near future.

They just might: now what could Israel possibly do to stop that from happening? If the answer is 'nothing' then it's really just a matter of time.

Rabin had the right idea: de-escalate and normalize. All this ego and religion driven talk of supremacy, god given rights and violence has to stop. Realize that Hamas or its future replacement will use what happens today as their most successful recruiting drive ever. The #1 goal should be to stop that recruiting drive, not to deal with Hamas in the present in strictly military terms. But for that to happen Israel would need to address some of its own faults. Fat chance of that happening in the current situation though and so I've already more or less accepted that this conflict will last for another century or so.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#293

Post by bhouston »

bawolff wrote: post #211
bhouston wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it happened in Iran the US opposed it: https://www.state.gov/joint-statement-on-internet-shutdowns-... Right now you can not call ambulances or firetrucks or anything. Not all 2M Palestinians in Gaza are combatants, but I think that some people consider them to be.

> When it happened in Iran the US opposed it: https://www.state.gov/joint-statement-on-internet-shutdowns- ... That's not comparable because that is not a military operation and there was no military advantage to the action. > Right now you can not call ambulances or firetrucks or anything. Not all 2M Palestinians in Gaza are combatants, but I think that some people consider them to be. I don't know what people think…

bawolff wrote:

> Generally from an international law perspective, the obligation is to ensure that civilian damage is porportional to military advantage.

This new report from HRW details both Hamas and Israeli war crimes:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/27/how-does-international-h...

On the Israeli side (but you can read about Hamas in the report above):

"Israel has also engaged in the collective punishment of Gaza’s population through cutting off food, water, electricity, and fuel. This is a war crime, as is willfully blocking humanitarian relief from reaching civilians in need."

"There’s also concern about Israel ordering the displacement of much of Gaza’s civilian population, which is permitted only if required for the civilians’ security or imperative military reasons. The civilian population needs to be able to return as soon as possible - permanent displacement is a crime."

"In addition, the Israeli occupying authorities have committed and continue to commit other international crimes, including with West Bank settlements. If the occupying power transfers any of its civilian population into the occupied territory, either directly or indirectly, it is a war crime."

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#294

Post by tachyons »

YZF wrote: post #257
tachyons wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take control over all water sources, electricity and disconnect it, ask people to leave their house without even enough food and destroy whatever they have gained during the life time. And still bomb them claiming that location they moved has military targets. https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/8/27/photos-palestini... (pre Oct 7)

"Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network" Excuse me if I'm not going to take that as a source. Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Do you have other examples of countries at war when one side provides the other with water and electricity? Look- you're right that Israel has asked peop…

There is no surprise in not taking journalists as source from a side who murder journalists. But let's keep that aside

- Why does Palestines are restricted from using their own water?

- Why does Israely military rules apply on Palestine?

- How does Palestinian citizens are responsible for the failure of Israely government of precise and targeted attack?

- Why does Israely government including the prime minister dehumanising the Palestinian citizens reminding of exact strategy of Hitlar?

- Why does Israely government not interested in getting their citizens back and take that opportunity for a war ?

Being pushed to the corner and that is a licence to do that horrible things is a dangerous argument, similar argument is used by Hamas. Similar argument was raised by Hitler and he convinced significant part of German population that Jews are evil, and they need to be eliminated for the safety of Germany.

Such arguments bring humanity back to stone age.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#295

Post by catlover76 »

YZF wrote: post #285
catlover76 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that poster is saying anything anti-semitic? His criticisms seem pretty practical and grounded in the reality of the situation. Personally, I don't think any country has the "right" to exist. Neither the Israelis nor Palestinians have any moral right to a country, and I think that the notion that "nations", which are often ahistorical fabrications, have the right to self-determination is bullshit.

I didn't really say anything about the poster. I'm just trying to address the question and how Jews or Israelis likely look at this. I agree with you "right to exist" is bullshit. A country exists or doesn't exist and it may also cease to exist if it can't remain a country. That's about it.

> I didn't really say anything about the poster. I'm just trying to address the question and how Jews or Israelis likely look at this.

Oh, sorry I misunderstood.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#296

Post by invalidname »

teleforce wrote: post #287

Guess which building first demolished to the ground by Israel military in Gaza at the beginning of the conflict? No price of getting the right answer, it's the Watan Tower building that hosted most of Gaza Internet Sevice Provider (ISP) companies Paltel and Jawwal and their infrastructure. It was also a hub for several international media outlets, including the Associated Press and Al Jazeera [1],[2],[3]. We are some…

It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#297

Post by enterprise_cog »

ipaddr wrote: post #238
culi wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, let's let this terrorists who killed babies cold blooded This is a completely made up fake story that's oft repeated by the Netanyahu administration. No basis in reality And you should really learn about the history of Palestine and all the attempts at peace. Israel has occupied Palestine for decades and has murdered thousands. In 2014 alone they killed 2,300 Palestinians. 70% of those being civilians. In retu…

Hamas is 8% of Gaza's males and whatever families support them at the least. "If you lost your brother, mother, sister, etc, wouldn't that push you to... doing something? Anything?" Are you saying you support Israel's response?

Maybe take a brief timeout. When you start cherry picking stats and throwing out statements like a camp guard and prisoner are the same... you've taking in too many social media posts and you’re triggered. Take a deep breath and go outside. Whatever war you are waging on here is not working

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#298

Post by bhouston »

brucethemoose2 wrote: post #202

History suggests expunging determined, fortified, modern militants embedded in a civilian population never goes well. The expunger loses or gets a pyrrhic victory, even with a huge economic advantage. Honestly, however dire the need, I don't see what Israel is thinking. If Israel, the US, Europe, China and Russia all held hands and invaded the Gaza strip together, they still probably couldn't route out Hamas.

And worse, Netanyahu has boosted Hamas explicitly in order to weaken Palestinian moderates and prevent a two-state solution:

https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-ga...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#299

Post by avtar »

petertodd wrote: post #241
avtar wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been giving evacuation warnings and then proceeding to bomb the very areas where people have been fleeing to... https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-atta...

[flagged]

What I and others in this thread are trying to point out is that the Israeli government's actions might be not as righteous as you're trying to portray. Is this just an attempt to wipe out Hamas or potentially also annexation of territory?

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israeli-think-tank-lays-out-a...

Holding a view that one side is villainous while the other is merely seeking justice seems fairly reductive.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#300

Post by jacquesm »

invalidname wrote: post #275
jacquesm wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only real problem is that there isn't anything to evacuate to and whatever they leave behind they'll lose forever.

How is this Israels fault at this point? There are a lot of historic things that are its fault, but at this point the Hamas left it no choice whatsoever. It won't accept anything less than the destruction of Israel. It still holds kidnapped children and elderly civilians. It's still firing missiles into Israel as of today... The Palestinian people got squeezed in the middle because of that and it's terrible. What mor…

Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well.

Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward. You end this conflict without a way to control the extremist elements on both sides, and given that Hamas has - successfully, which they shouldn't have been able to do in the first place - attacked Israel and now Israel will respond with even more violence the only thing that will happen is that both sides' fanatics will gain a larger fraction of the population to support them. The opposite is what should be happening and Israel arguably has the strongest position in this conflict and also by far the most to lose.

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