Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population • Hacker News Board

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#151

Post by autoexec » Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

samus wrote: post #71

Aurornis wrote: post #58

The presence of antibodies isn’t as big of a signal as we once thought. There have been several companies developing antibody tests for various things, including your body’s own natural receptors. They have been appealing to people with chronic illnesses as an explanation for unexplained symptoms. For example, implying that if their tests show antibodies to certain receptors then that is a diagnostic clue. Then some…

There are two considerable points here: 1) this is a simple molecule, not an organism that can react to the threat. As you said, it would be interesting to be evaluate whether the antibodies actually have an effect, but they probably have, else they likely wouldn't have been detected at all. 2) the blood samples were taken from patients. It would be interesting to evaluate blood samples from the population at large.

> it would be interesting to be evaluate whether the antibodies actually have an effect, but they probably have, else they likely wouldn't have been detected at all.

You're right. The antibodies to PEG are detected after a very severe reaction or after testing following many bad reactions to seemingly unrelated substances so for some people it's having a very harmful effect. PEG can even cause anaphylaxis. Reactions can become increasingly severe with repeated exposure too, so someone mildly sensitive to PEG today could end up in the ER at some point in the future.

Our bodies seem to see PEG as a hazard so I hope alternatives are found for it.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#152

Post by kragen » Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 10:04 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #120

kragen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

olive oil has been widely available for the last 7000 years, butter for ten thousand years, but the obesity pandemic is only 50 years old

This is extremely disingenuous. You cannot drink anything more than a little bit of olive oil without serious gastric consequences, which is why most of history involves using a little bit of vegetable oil here and there for the other desirable properties. Nevermind the fact that nobody could afford large quantities of ANY food, and even after we brought the potato, a way more efficient means of growing calories, to…

the quality of your comment is not up to even the fairly low bar set by the rest of this thread

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#153

Post by autoexec » Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 10:08 PM UTC

cubefox wrote: post #107

4death4 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just speaking from personal experience, I’m fat because I eat cake and ice cream every day and walk 6,000 steps on a good day. I don’t really see a mystery here tbh.

Cake and ice cream did exist 50 years ago, and I doubt it was any healthier back then. Anyway, nobody doubts that excessive calorie intake causes obesity. The question is whether some chemicals in food cause an increased desire for excessive calorie intake, e.g. via confusing our hormone system. Most thin people aren't just thin because they eat less, they are thin because they don't have a disposition for binge eati…

> Cake and ice cream did exist 50 years ago, and I doubt it was any healthier back then.

Cake and Ice cream 50 years were ago were likely healthier and would have been healthier still going farther back. They'd have likely used fewer ingredients, less sugar (and less HFCS), and contained fewer microplastics/PFAS. Much of the ice cream sold in stores today can't even legally call themselves ice cream! They're "Frozen dessert products"

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#154

Post by willy_k » Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 10:13 PM UTC

lawlessone wrote: post #51

Would this explain, or partially explain, why some drugs can such varying efficacy across different populations?

I would think that metabolism is a clearer target considering the direct link between genetics and enzymes, not to say that your proposal isn’t still possible this just seems more proximate. That being said I’m not an expert at all and could be totally wrong.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#155

Post by spondylosaurus » Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

epgui wrote: post #139

spondylosaurus wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To point (1), antibodies against non-alive substances are how you get things like allergies and autoimmune diseases. Your body goes "holy shit pollen!" and makes you break out in hives or "holy shit gluten!" and makes your guts inflamed. Not all the time, obviously, and it depends on the type of antibody.

This comment is "not even wrong". I'm not sure how much more "alive" you expect something like pollen to be (or most allergens, which are usually proteins or protein fragments). Nobody is claiming that antibodies are binding to whole-cats or whole-dogs. They normally bind to protein, and sometimes to protein-coupled-with-small-molecules. It's fairly notable for there to be Abs against synthetic molecules, even if PEG…

? The person I was replying to mentioned "not an organism that can react to the threat," which I took to mean a bacterium or virus. The former of which is definitely alive, and the latter debatably so.

What I was trying to convey is that your immune system regularly responds to things that are not active invading organisms. Peanut butter is organic, sure, but it's not a living creature that your body needs to shut down. Doesn't stop some people's immune systems from firing up regardless.

Hence also: "it would be interesting to be evaluate whether the antibodies actually have an effect"—allergies are one way that antibodies can have an effect against an otherwise inert/harmless substance.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#156

Post by abletonlive » Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

kragen wrote: post #30

idiotsecant wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary cause of the obesity epidemic is the widespread availability of cheap calorie dense food and a few hundred million years of evolution devoted to making biological machines designed to consume as much calorie dense food as they could find.

olive oil has been widely available for the last 7000 years, butter for ten thousand years, but the obesity pandemic is only 50 years old

It's really not that deep. Anybody tracking calories and logging food will quickly realize that the comment you're replying to is correct. You have to make very thoughtful choices when choosing your foods because it's easy to eat 2-3x your TDEE with the current available foods that are sold. Most of it is calorically dense junk.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#157

Post by darkclouds » Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

epgui wrote: post #140

Aurornis wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As you said, it would be interesting to be evaluate whether the antibodies actually have an effect, The article has a quote from the researchers about how the antibodies could remove a future PEG nanocarrier from the patients' system: > "The antibodies formed against PEG attach themselves to the coated nanocarriers, thus counteracting the effect that is actually desired: the nanocarrier becomes visible to the immun…

PEG is used in so many biomedical applications, largely because of its favourable immunochemical properties-- that's precisely the concern.

[dead]

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#158

Post by flextheruler » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 12:59 AM UTC

kragen wrote: post #81

flextheruler wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What city do you live in? There is a huge array of healthy low calorie options near me all the way to pure vegetarian/vegan places. There is a ridiculously strong correlation between sedentariness and obesity. We our more sedentary than ever before and then remote work/school increased it again. I believe a person struggling with weight is basically determined in their childhood. Only in childhood will the body build…

yet most fat adults were not fat children, though in another 30 years that will no longer be true; childhood obesity was rare until this millennium

It certainly was rarer but this was a known phenomenon occurring at least back in the 1960s

Off the top of my head I know there’s a speech of JFKs where he advocates for child health saying quote “there’s nothing more unfortunate than fat chubby children”

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#159

Post by epgui » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:18 AM UTC

spondylosaurus wrote: post #155

epgui wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is "not even wrong". I'm not sure how much more "alive" you expect something like pollen to be (or most allergens, which are usually proteins or protein fragments). Nobody is claiming that antibodies are binding to whole-cats or whole-dogs. They normally bind to protein, and sometimes to protein-coupled-with-small-molecules. It's fairly notable for there to be Abs against synthetic molecules, even if PEG…

? The person I was replying to mentioned "not an organism that can react to the threat," which I took to mean a bacterium or virus. The former of which is definitely alive, and the latter debatably so. What I was trying to convey is that your immune system regularly responds to things that are not active invading organisms. Peanut butter is organic, sure, but it's not a living creature that your body needs to shut do…

Antibodies do not target bacteria or viruses. They target protein that are present on bacteria or viruses. Protein are not alive, but they are a component of live organisms.

Protein present in peanut butter come from the plant that produces peanuts, which is just as alive (if not more) than microorganisms.

The only difference between the two are the time scales involved, and the natural selection forces in play... But that seems irrelevant here.

Your immune system has no notion of whether an antigen is alive or not. One way or another, it makes no difference. For the allergy example, there is nothing special there either. Your body is reacting to the allergen (a protein) in essentially the same way it would react to a helminth (or rather, to helminth protein). It doesn't know the difference.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#160

Post by spondylosaurus » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:20 AM UTC

epgui wrote: post #159

spondylosaurus wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? The person I was replying to mentioned "not an organism that can react to the threat," which I took to mean a bacterium or virus. The former of which is definitely alive, and the latter debatably so. What I was trying to convey is that your immune system regularly responds to things that are not active invading organisms. Peanut butter is organic, sure, but it's not a living creature that your body needs to shut do…

Antibodies do not target bacteria or viruses. They target protein that are present on bacteria or viruses. Protein are not alive, but they are a component of live organisms. Protein present in peanut butter come from the plant that produces peanuts, which is just as alive (if not more) than microorganisms. The only difference between the two are the time scales involved, and the natural selection forces in play... Bu…

> Protein present in peanut butter come from the plant that produces peanuts, which is just as alive (if not more) than microorganisms.

Right, but peanut butter itself is not alive. I never claimed that it's inorganic, only that a morsel of peanut butter is not a living creature, and specifically not a living creature that makes (most people) sick.

> Your immune system has no notion of whether an antigen is alive or not. One way or another, it makes no difference.

This is also what I was trying to convey, albeit in laymen's terms. As I understood it, the person I initially replied to wondered what would happen if your immune system reacted to a(n organic but) non-living substance. And the answer is that your immune system still reacts, but the reaction doesn't accomplish anything useful or necessary, and that's why no one likes having MS or a pet dander allergy. At least when your immune system reacts to a coronavirus, it's for a good reason—to clear out the virus.