Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested • Hacker News Board

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#101

Post by whyenot » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:16 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #90

woliveirajr wrote: post #8

In 2020, the then president of Brazil said he would reveal which countries were the consumers of the illegally extracted wood from Amazonia. [0] No further news were heard about it. There were even a startup that would use DNA to certify the origin of the wood, allowing traceability. The "efforts to halt trade in illegal timber such as the EU Timber Regulation and the US Lacey Act" can greatly contribute to reduce th…

Another side of this is you really want to put economic value on sustainably harvesting these trees and preserving the forest, because if you say "no harvesting at all" then it's more profitable for someone to burn the forest down and replace it with cattle. Years ago tracking lumber from harvesting through the supply chain was one of the few convincing cases I heard for blockchain applications, where you have a sequ…

The problem is that in many cases tropical hardwoods are so slow growing and so intertwined with other species (both physically and metaphorically) that there isn't a way to harvest them sustainably. As a planet, we need to decide how much of these forests we are going to save, and then actually protect them. That may sound idealistic, but as someone who has spent a significant portion of my adult life working and studying tropical rainforests, I don't see another good option.

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#102

Post by finite_depth » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:16 PM UTC

thomasstephan wrote: post #98

To be spending a lot of time working in the rainforest in Peru where logging (legal and illegal) is everywhere, you can't trace properly. Certificates are easy to forge, the entire pipeline is pen and paper. How can you tell once the legal wood and the illegal wood are in a container which is which? You can't. So many people here are outraged, how many of you are supporting on the ground teams protecting rainforests?…

I wonder if there's a way to tag trees to stop this. Like, spray the protected wood with some harmless-but-detectable dose of a radioisotope so you can tell which wood is which.

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#103

Post by mschulkind » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:18 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #78

hcurtiss wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may be an anomaly, but we have 13.5mm laminates[1] which I'd say were relatively high grade when we put them in. The product we used didn't come with stair kits so we had to do the staircase with oak stained to match. We have two full-size golden retrievers. Eight years later, the laminates look like the day we installed them -- literally. The oak is all scratched up and will take a lot of work to refinish. [2] I…

Laminates are closer to hardwood flooring than to vinyl. Put it in simplest terms, they are basically the same as hardwood flooring, but you can only sand and refinish them maybe once or twice. This limits their lifespan, from 100+ years of full hardwood flooring to “only” a 30-40 years for laminate. Vinyl, on the other hand, is completely different, and is unlikely to survive daily use in serviceable state for more…

I think you're confusing terminology here. Laminate is generally the cheapest option with some sort of plastic over some sort of MDF type material. Definitely no option to refinish.

You're describing engineered hardwood, which ironically often cost more than regular hardwood.

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#104

Post by Spivak » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:19 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #86

simonsarris wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> look nearly indistinguishable maybe I'm top 1% neurotic about these things but I can tell from Zillow images alone. And definitely by feel of walking on them and the distinct noise they make. There's no comparison. I seriously doubt they are indistinguishable for most people, but I could be very wrong, especially since so many people go for them.

Sometimes life is better when you just accept that something is different but not necessarily worse. Natural gas fireplaces aren't real wood-burning, and I can tell, but I just appreciate that they are way cleaner. Now, furniture is a different story. Wood is much better than the engineered crap. Try lifting a modern piece that looks like wood and maybe has a thin layer of wood (very heavy and easy to damage) and the…

But it's so much worse, we can squabble over particulars the minor day to day benefits of them both but the showstopper is that laminate is just trash waiting to happen. Hardwood floors can last 100+ years easy and can be maintained essentially indefinitely. And even if you don't maintain them they can be restored without too much trouble, there are previously abandoned houses that got flipped and are going for 600k with the original floors.

Hardwood floors, tile roofs, ceramic freestanding bathtubs, and loose stone or brick pathways are never not worth the investment.

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#105

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:22 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #78

hcurtiss wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may be an anomaly, but we have 13.5mm laminates[1] which I'd say were relatively high grade when we put them in. The product we used didn't come with stair kits so we had to do the staircase with oak stained to match. We have two full-size golden retrievers. Eight years later, the laminates look like the day we installed them -- literally. The oak is all scratched up and will take a lot of work to refinish. [2] I…

Laminates are closer to hardwood flooring than to vinyl. Put it in simplest terms, they are basically the same as hardwood flooring, but you can only sand and refinish them maybe once or twice. This limits their lifespan, from 100+ years of full hardwood flooring to “only” a 30-40 years for laminate. Vinyl, on the other hand, is completely different, and is unlikely to survive daily use in serviceable state for more…

[deleted]

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#106

Post by mschulkind » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

ulrischa wrote: post #89

Ipê wood is known for its extreme hardness and durability. In fact, it's so dense that it can sink in water. So nothing for motorboating.

That's not why boats float. Notice metal and concrete boats exist.

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#107

Post by foxyv » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

This is why I stick to locally grown native species of wood. My favorite is Red Oak but Black Walnut is a close second. Both are amazing woods with excellent qualities. Best way to make sure you aren't funding organizations that are killing people and destroying forests.

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#108

Post by majestic5762 » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:28 PM UTC

IKEA's Assault on Romania's Ancient Forests:

* IKEA faces allegations of aggressively exploiting the last of Romania's ancient forests.

* Ivestigations in the U.S. document IKEA's rush against time to exploit these forests.

* The primary motivation for this deforestation is sheer profit.

* Documented evidence shows complete and illegal clear-cutting of forests under IKEA's direction.

Romania's Forests – Europe's Amazon:

* Romania is home to one of the world's last and largest ancient forests. The Carpathian Mountains in Romania house half of the remaining ancient forests, often termed as the "Amazon of Europe."

Economic Incentives and Unchecked Exploitation:

* Romania's entry into the European Union in 2007 opened markets for its abundant and cheap timber.

Political inefficiency and corruption have enabled unchecked deforestation and exploitation.

Reports suggest that more than half of Romania's timber is exploited illegally.

IKEA's Dubious Role:

* IKEA stands as the world's largest individual wood consumer, its demand growing by about 2 million trees annually.

* In 2015, IKEA began buying vast tracts of forests in Romania, quickly becoming the largest private forest owner there.

* IKEA has been linked to suppliers involved in illegal wood acquisitions, including notable names like Kronospan, Egger, and Schweighofer.

* The company has a pattern of aggressive forest acquisitions and connections with both legal and illegal suppliers, not only in Romania but also in countries like Ukraine and Russia.

LGBTQ+ Campaign as a Distraction:

* IKEA's promotion of LGBTQ+ rights is portrayed as a smokescreen to divert attention from its environmental and corporate malpractices.

* The promotion of LGBTQ+ ideologies, while noble in other contexts, is seen here as a corporate strategy to overshadow their illicit activities.

IKEA's Ideological Dominance:

* IKEA is not just a neutral space; it's portrayed as an ideological stronghold.

* There have been instances where employees were allegedly fired for not conforming to IKEA's political stance. * A Polish court had to intervene to reinstate an employee terminated on such grounds.

A Moral and Environmental Dilemma:

* Romania faces a choice: to focus on rampant deforestation and exploitation by giants like IKEA or to be sidetracked by ideological debates while being economically and morally overshadowed by such corporations.

See https://r3media.ro/ikea-distrugerea-ultimelor-paduri-secular...

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#109

Post by mbreese » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:29 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #38

wintogreen74 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's likely color-throughout as well, so never needs to be refinished. A birthday cake with sparklers did some pitting damage to mine though. I will never use real wood for a flat outdoor surface again.

Nah they fade and look bad after a few years. Any damage can’t really be fixed either without the replacement sticking out. They’re sort of fine but they’ll need replacing just the same, tend to get very hot, hard to change, and are not very flattering.

I don’t know about the fading. My in laws have a dock built out of it, and aside from it getting hot in the sun, the color is still pretty consistent between shaded and non-shaded sections.

Re: Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested

#110

Post by wlesieutre » Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

whyenot wrote: post #101

wlesieutre wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another side of this is you really want to put economic value on sustainably harvesting these trees and preserving the forest, because if you say "no harvesting at all" then it's more profitable for someone to burn the forest down and replace it with cattle. Years ago tracking lumber from harvesting through the supply chain was one of the few convincing cases I heard for blockchain applications, where you have a sequ…

The problem is that in many cases tropical hardwoods are so slow growing and so intertwined with other species (both physically and metaphorically) that there isn't a way to harvest them sustainably. As a planet, we need to decide how much of these forests we are going to save, and then actually protect them. That may sound idealistic, but as someone who has spent a significant portion of my adult life working and st…

Certainly not in the volume for people to be using it for all their decks and flooring. Actual sustainable harvesting would probably price out everything but musical instruments and maybe some expensive outdoor furniture.