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Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

ryanfunduk.com

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Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#51

Post by mileszs »

spyderman4g63 wrote: post #49

Alcohol is not the main problem. The lack of professionalism that the attendees have is. You can have a drink or two and still have meaningful conversations, but getting sloshed is just stupid. If you want to get trashed, why waste the money on a conference ticket?

I have been thinking the same thing while reading the article and comments. I haven't been to any of the larger conferences, so I thought I'd keep my mouth shut in case I'm simply missing something. There are a couple monthly tech meetings in Indy that either are at a bar, or go to a bar afterward. I don't recall having seen a single intoxicated person at one of the local events, let alone a majority of the attendees.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#52

Post by envex »

michaelneale wrote: post #12
rcfox wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by human non-people?

> So if you don't drink you're not a person? ctide didn't say anything of the sort. I think ctide was trying to generalise from programmers -> people not implying all of humanity. I have seen this phenomena (?) of "binge conferences" in many other circles - medical, engineering, accounting, legal. Journalism.. the list goes on, so it is a fair point.

I think the main reason it turns into "binge conferences" is because people treat them as a vacation.

Away from home, why not have a few drinks.

I'd bet $5 that the tap at GitHub isn't used to binge (as much as the author thinks). It's like a foosball table, used for a week straight, then forgot about.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#53

Post by gurney_alex »

Interesting article, thanks. I live in France, where it is forbidden to have alcoholic beverages at work, so I'm a bit surprised reading your description of the situation in the US. Same thing for the events I've attended (Linux Expo, RMLL, XP Days, EuroPython...), where it certainly was possible to get a beer (generally not for free), but no drinking parties were organized (or I was not aware of them). So maybe you should consider moving on the other side of the Atlantic where you could possibly feel more at ease :-)

-- Gurney (https://twitter.com/#!/gurneyalex)

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#54

Post by theorique »

pbiggar wrote: post #21
theorique wrote: post #7

Maybe it doesn't matter, but I didn't see anywhere in the article why Ryan chooses not to drink. Obviously, his own choice with what to choose to put in his body. But I have definitely wondered about the influence of the culture on those who don't drink for cultural or religious reasons (e.g. Muslim, Mormon) Are we losing talented people who don't want to be part of that aspect of the culture? Protip: on nights when…

I don't think why he doesn't drink should have any bearing on it. He feels excluded from the culture, and it doesn't matter whether that's because he's religious, an alcoholic, etc. Similarly, one shouldn't have to pretend to be drinking to enjoy a night in the pub (note, I'm a non-drinker who feels perfectly at home in the pub).

I agree - this is largely my own curiosity (nosiness).

It's clear that the OP had a very strong objection. This kind of passion doesn't generally emerge from nowhere, so I was curious about what was really driving him. (And I reiterate - if he chooses not to drink, he is of course answerable to no one. His body, his choice.)

At the same time, it's fruitful to fish where the fish are. If a person wants to have conversations with tech people and the tech people are at the pub he can either go to the pub or engage with them at some other time / place. Seems Ryan has chosen the latter.

I also agree that one need not be pretending to drink or ashamed of not drinking. Not at all. I use my fake-drink for convenience, to stave off the Nth person asking me why I don't have a beer in my hand or whatever.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#55

Post by dbourguignon »

gurney_alex wrote: post #53

Interesting article, thanks. I live in France, where it is forbidden to have alcoholic beverages at work, so I'm a bit surprised reading your description of the situation in the US. Same thing for the events I've attended (Linux Expo, RMLL, XP Days, EuroPython...), where it certainly was possible to get a beer (generally not for free), but no drinking parties were organized (or I was not aware of them). So maybe you…

Yes, true, never notice this trend about alcohol in France in conference.

Binge drinking is not particularly popular here.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#56

Post by theorique »

gurney_alex wrote: post #53

Interesting article, thanks. I live in France, where it is forbidden to have alcoholic beverages at work, so I'm a bit surprised reading your description of the situation in the US. Same thing for the events I've attended (Linux Expo, RMLL, XP Days, EuroPython...), where it certainly was possible to get a beer (generally not for free), but no drinking parties were organized (or I was not aware of them). So maybe you…

That surprises me that France prohibits drinks at work. Granted, most hip US based companies that I've seen that have a bar do not have people drinking at 1pm. Usually it's a post-5pm happy hour thing, not a license to get hammered with your colleagues.

I have a vision of Europe, and probably France in particular, as being far more liberal about alcohol (but more conservative about abuse / overindulgence in alcohol).

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#57

Post by briandear »

He needs to lighten up! All day long I stare at screens solving problems. A beer often serves as a great way to relax and de-stress. His abhorrence of alcohol is perfectly within his rights, but he shouldn't act self righteous and judge others. The post reads almost like a temperance movement column from 1917 and is equally ridiculous.

There's also a big difference between a beer in the company fridge (like Pivotal, ZocDoc, iCouch, DPL, etc,) and doing keg stands next to the pairing stations. The absolutism of the blog was my biggest complaint. Moderation has a place between the extreme of binge lunacy and strict teetotaling.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#58

Post by mjwalshe »

Oh dear me looks like the OP desnt get out much if he think programmers drink a lot he shold hang out out with Civil engineers or Squaddies or goto a Political conference where you know your feeling your age when you can't stay in the bar till 4 go back to you room write three speaches and win your motions.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#59

Post by ahoyhere »

lsmith77 wrote: post #38
ahoyhere wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so, because you feel excluded, you believe that conferences should be remade in a way that makes you feel included. And who will that cause to feel excluded? Not to mention, other than your colorful editorializations of what you think people mean ("Y U NO DRINK?" Y U NO BACK UP YOUR FAUX INTERNAL MONOLOGUES?), I don't see where's this hostile environment exactly? Because I haven't seen or heard of anything hostil…

I think its legitimate to note why someone doesn't want to go to conferences anymore. Now if organizers will act on that is their own decision. But if nobody ever speaks up, then it implies that everyone is happy with things are going.

I absolutely agree with you! But "note why someone doesn't want to go to conferences any more" is not what this essay did. He systematically painted everyone involved as a bastard, simply because they like doing something he doesn't. He didn't even give any examples of people pressuring him to drink or treating him weirdly for not drinking… probably because there weren't any.

There's a huge gulf between "This turns me off, here's why" and quoting your wife, who is not involved in the situation, calling programmers terrible, as bad as bankers, based on your completely editorialized and unfounded comments about programmers who said something positive about drinking.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#60

Post by BoredAstronaut »

tillk wrote: post #41

Not sure if I'd paint it so black and white, I think in general I have been in many of these things as well. On both ends – I guess more on the 'I'm getting a drink' one because I agree that after a while there is no reason to stay sober anymore, because everyone else is on their way already. It's either that or go home, which I do frequently as well. But it very much depends on the kind of people I am with – in many…

There is this old-fashioned idea called "professionalism", which seems to have been inadvertently discarded along with dress codes, and of which they were once emblematic. Work is not home, is not friends (wholly), and is most certainly not college (unless it is).

I kid myself that if there was a better age, sex and cultural mix in software companies, these kinds of extremes would be tempered. It would be a start. Is programming the new advertising? Or is it just a side-effect of success?

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