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Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

ryanfunduk.com

11–20 of 93 posts

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#11
post #8

The comparison to sexism is pretty offensive to me (even though you try to minimize it early in the article, yet bring it up again via a link at the end). You're privileged to have the option to just not go to the party after the conference - women don't get to just "not be women".

It's sexist to assume all women have problems with conferences simply because they're women, or that we all think the same. Just sayin'.

I realized that I sounded that way after I was unable to edit it :-/ Expressing meaning via written text = tricky.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#12
post #10
post #3

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unfortunately for you, lots of people drink. It's not just a programmer thing. It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. I'm sorry that you feel uncomfortable going to conferences because of the drinking, but unfortunately, it's something you should probably learn to accept. You can move cities, change careers, do whatever you want, but unfor…

> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by human non-people?

> So if you don't drink you're not a person?

ctide didn't say anything of the sort. I think ctide was trying to generalise from programmers -> people not implying all of humanity.

I have seen this phenomena (?) of "binge conferences" in many other circles - medical, engineering, accounting, legal. Journalism.. the list goes on, so it is a fair point.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#13
post #10
post #3

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unfortunately for you, lots of people drink. It's not just a programmer thing. It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. I'm sorry that you feel uncomfortable going to conferences because of the drinking, but unfortunately, it's something you should probably learn to accept. You can move cities, change careers, do whatever you want, but unfor…

> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by human non-people?

No, then if you don't drink, you simply don't participate in one of the most prominent ways people socialize. There was no implication of sub-humanity there. Strawmen are bad.

Even including Islamic countries in the set, drinking is still one of the most prominent ways people in general socialize on average.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#14
post #10
post #3

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unfortunately for you, lots of people drink. It's not just a programmer thing. It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. I'm sorry that you feel uncomfortable going to conferences because of the drinking, but unfortunately, it's something you should probably learn to accept. You can move cities, change careers, do whatever you want, but unfor…

> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by human non-people?

When it sounds like somebody is saying something totally crazy, before you jump down their throat, try taking a step back and see if there's a more reasonable way to interpret it. Even exceptionally clear statements in English can often be taken two ways — this is one of the reasons that writing instruction manuals is so devilishly hard — and it's unreasonable to expect even that level of clarity from everyone all the time.

In this particular case, it's more likely that the grandparent meant "this is something that most people do — programmers are not unusual in this regard, so it's weird to single them out."

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#15
post #10
post #3

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unfortunately for you, lots of people drink. It's not just a programmer thing. It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. I'm sorry that you feel uncomfortable going to conferences because of the drinking, but unfortunately, it's something you should probably learn to accept. You can move cities, change careers, do whatever you want, but unfor…

> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by human non-people?

Ignoring the whole leap to conclusions thing going on here, I'd just like to add that at least half of all Muslims I know drink socially. And, from what I've heard, alcohol in countries like Iran is much like marijuana in the USA.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#16
post #10
post #3

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unfortunately for you, lots of people drink. It's not just a programmer thing. It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. I'm sorry that you feel uncomfortable going to conferences because of the drinking, but unfortunately, it's something you should probably learn to accept. You can move cities, change careers, do whatever you want, but unfor…

> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by human non-people?

Okay, I'll admit to being rather hyperbolic here. However, when you say things like, "This is something that people do." it sounds a lot like you're making a universal statement about people everywhere.

Arguments of the type of "well, I've seen lots of people do this" just smell of availability bias. I can't argue that you're wrong, but you haven't given a good enough argument for me to conclude that you're correct.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#17
post #16
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by human non-people?

Okay, I'll admit to being rather hyperbolic here. However, when you say things like, "This is something that people do." it sounds a lot like you're making a universal statement about people everywhere. Arguments of the type of "well, I've seen lots of people do this" just smell of availability bias. I can't argue that you're wrong, but you haven't given a good enough argument for me to conclude that you're correct.

Are you really questioning that drinking is an enormously popular activity in most of the world? It's pretty common knowledge that drinking is popular, and its popularity is pretty close to universal. For example, according to the World Health Organization, drinkers are the vast majority of the adult population in most developed countries. Drinking as a common social activity is even mentioned in the Bible and other ancient texts.

The OP, on the other hand, is much more of a "Well, I've seen lots of people do this" argument: It's explicitly based on his personal experience with conferences.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#18
The OP seems to have a real chip on his shoulder about drinking. About half of what the OP said was him putting words in people's mouths (see: "Y U NO DRINK" for an example). This is coming from someone who is also a non-drinker, and who is from a culture in which drinking is almost the only social activity (I'm from Ireland).

That actually puts him in the same company as the brogrammers, who think that drinking is somehow makes their group special. The OP looks at drunken antics and thinks "those idiots" (emphasis on "those"), while they think "we're so cool" (emphasis on "we").

Compare to how I perceive most drinkers: people who want to have a conversation, and use alcohol to provide both the venue and a small social lubricant. Having been to a few github meetups in SF, they're largely sober affairs - I haven't observed much alcoholism or drunkenness. Conferences are a bit worse, but that's because people start drinking earlier.

It's not hard to enjoy these conferences, even as a non-drinker. Geeks chatting to geeks about geekery. Yes it happens in the pub; yes most people are drinking; yes some people have an unhealthy attitude to drinking - but that's life. I would suggest the OP tries again: roll your eyes at those bragging about drinking, ignore the guys slurring their words, and have good geeky conversation with the other 90% (a number which obviously diminishes the longer the event goes on).

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#19
What's next, "I feel excluded because I'm a naturist"? The author seems to be uncomfortable with drinking and seems to be projecting his discomfort on the people at these conferences. I go to social functions all the time where other people are drinking and I'm not — sometimes it's awkward, sometimes it's great fun anyway (honestly, that's true of dry events too). If that's not his bag, cool, but it's hard to find an actionable suggestion in this post beyond "I think everyone should be like me and not drink." This is not really comparable to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified or looked down upon.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#20
post #13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. So if you don't drink you're not a person? Alcohol is generally prohibited in Islam. Are you going to tell me that there are entire nations inhabited by human non-people?

No, then if you don't drink, you simply don't participate in one of the most prominent ways people socialize. There was no implication of sub-humanity there. Strawmen are bad. Even including Islamic countries in the set, drinking is still one of the most prominent ways people in general socialize on average.

> No, then if you don't drink, you simply don't participate in one of the most prominent ways people socialize.

If that were true that would be bad - drinking at conferences would then truly alienate non-drinkers. But actually, non-drinkers can participate just fine in one of the most prominent ways people socialize.

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