Live data from Hacker News

Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

ryanfunduk.com

31–40 of 93 posts

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#31
post #19

What's next, "I feel excluded because I'm a naturist"? The author seems to be uncomfortable with drinking and seems to be projecting his discomfort on the people at these conferences. I go to social functions all the time where other people are drinking and I'm not — sometimes it's awkward, sometimes it's great fun anyway (honestly, that's true of dry events too). If that's not his bag, cool, but it's hard to find an…

My actionable suggestions are to distance the event itself from the open bar that occurs afterwards. I definitely don't think people shouldn't drink in general. I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified - I was saying it contributes to a hostile environment for lots of people.

"I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified"

Lighten up.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#32
post #19

What's next, "I feel excluded because I'm a naturist"? The author seems to be uncomfortable with drinking and seems to be projecting his discomfort on the people at these conferences. I go to social functions all the time where other people are drinking and I'm not — sometimes it's awkward, sometimes it's great fun anyway (honestly, that's true of dry events too). If that's not his bag, cool, but it's hard to find an…

My actionable suggestions are to distance the event itself from the open bar that occurs afterwards. I definitely don't think people shouldn't drink in general. I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified - I was saying it contributes to a hostile environment for lots of people.

Ah, so, because you feel excluded, you believe that conferences should be remade in a way that makes you feel included.

And who will that cause to feel excluded?

Not to mention, other than your colorful editorializations of what you think people mean ("Y U NO DRINK?" Y U NO BACK UP YOUR FAUX INTERNAL MONOLOGUES?), I don't see where's this hostile environment exactly? Because I haven't seen or heard of anything hostile at conf after-parties and I've spoken at 20 tech conferences and attended more. Confs from all over the "ego gamut" - from old school PHP confs, PERL confs, and OSCON to LessConf and JSConf. And, let it be known, I'm a woman. Who no longer drinks at conference after parties.

So you figure if anyone's gonna have a ring-side seat to obnoxiousness, it'd be me.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#33
post #25

Re: Brogrammers I don't think that drinking has anything to do with the brogrammer trend. Drinking was around before the brogrammer trend and it's going to be around after. The author states that drinking might be the cause of the brogrammer trend but the offers nothing to support that claim and does not elaborate further. Nobody is discussing drinking as a cause of this because it's not.

You're right. The drinking was always epic at OSCON in the early 2000s -- a conf that has historically been full of the purest OSS nerds, least brogrammer types. And let's not even get started on PERL events. Free as in beer, you know.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#34

I don't get it. Do people give you shit for not drinking when you go to events? I've never had any problem when I decide I don't feel like drinking that day. You say you don't want to tell people what to do, but you want them to stop drinking?

It's link bait, or ego bait, pure and simple. See how he extrapolates "We have free beer on Fridays" with "Non-drinkers need not apply." Ludicrous.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#37
Its sad when someone introduces you to a new community, telling you how much they love to drink. Then when you reply that you don't drink, said person tells you .. you know actually I don't drink either.

First up, very few of these parties are advertised as a place to taste alcohol. They are advertised as get wasted as much as possible cause its cool. And its pretty much every conference I go to.

But at any rate, I think the "original" purpose was the same as why people drink when they are back at home: To reduce anxiety and to make it easier for people to get to know each other. I think that is a worthy goal since to me the main purpose of conferences are to network, the talks come second.

But I know the same deal from sports tournaments where its also play hard on saturday, get drunk on saturday evening, play hard on sunday. I just sick around as long as there is someone not drunk to talk to, or the DJ doesn't suck so that I can dance. So it goes.

I also recently wrote on my Facebook page, that this is yet another form of excluding people. Especially if the only non alcoholic drink is water and pineapple juice. But yeah the difference is that nobody has seriously (well jokingly they have) implied that I am a worse programmer because I don't drink, where as it appears to happen still way too often that women are assumed to be booth babes or n00bs.

But getting smashed also has the tendency that people do stupid things and when a bunch of guys feel like they totally own a place in numbers while being totally drunk they might also start thinking they can "own" that female geek hacker. So yeah maybe there is where we get back to the sexism debate.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My actionable suggestions are to distance the event itself from the open bar that occurs afterwards. I definitely don't think people shouldn't drink in general. I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified - I was saying it contributes to a hostile environment for lots of people.

Ah, so, because you feel excluded, you believe that conferences should be remade in a way that makes you feel included. And who will that cause to feel excluded? Not to mention, other than your colorful editorializations of what you think people mean ("Y U NO DRINK?" Y U NO BACK UP YOUR FAUX INTERNAL MONOLOGUES?), I don't see where's this hostile environment exactly? Because I haven't seen or heard of anything hostil…

I think its legitimate to note why someone doesn't want to go to conferences anymore. Now if organizers will act on that is their own decision.

But if nobody ever speaks up, then it implies that everyone is happy with things are going.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not at JSConf this year)

#39
post #3

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unfortunately for you, lots of people drink. It's not just a programmer thing. It's one of the most prominent ways people socialize. Not programmers, people. I'm sorry that you feel uncomfortable going to conferences because of the drinking, but unfortunately, it's something you should probably learn to accept. You can move cities, change careers, do whatever you want, but unfor…

Exactly, it's not a programmer thing, it's a culture thing.

Non-development oriented conferences I've been to end up in the bar too.

It's not just conferences, plenty of non developer activities I've been to end up with most people congregating in a pub/bar afterwards, all of them with a mix of age ranges and healthy ratio of women/men. Mountain biking trips, rock climbing weekends, skiing trips, beer festivals - actually scratch that last one.

It might be more pronounced in tech companies and conferences than in some other areas because the age range is probably skewed a bit more to the lower end (baseless assumption) than in other fields?

Post reply on HN