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Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

nytimes.com

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Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#231

Post by explaininjs »

kawhah wrote: post #226
ensignavenger wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of it? Specifically, the 'kind-of' - most Christians beleive Jesus was fully human/mortal. 'with no loss'- most Christians beleive Jesus gave the ultimate sacrifice, not only his mortal life, bit also profound and incomphrensible suffering (don't forget the events in Gethsemane, not just at the hands of the Sanhedrin and the Romans). Also his sacrifice went far beyond forgiving sins of beleivers. It included the…

1. ok, so the word 'kinda' is not an essential part of the doctrine, got it. 2. 'profound and incomprehensible suffering' - what is Jesus supposed to have suffered which is different from many other humans who have been betrayed, tortured and killed? Whatever you think it is, it appears to be extra-biblical. The Gethsemane quote is just "my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death". Allowing for loss in transla…

Rather, the lack of the word "kinda" is an essential part of the doctrine.

And everyone is affected: even if they may not be saved, they are all still resurrected in the end days. This is uncontroversial, and documented throughout the bible. Here is a summary: https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/will-all-people-be-resu...

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#232

Post by gshulegaard »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #93
kykeonaut wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that there is no evidence. All the evidence of negative effects so far is anecdotal, which in reality calls for more research in the area [0]. In addition, only about 0.2% report having sought emergency treatment [1] when using psylocibin. [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/02698811221084...

As someone who partakes in psychedelics to a moderate degree, I don’t think it makes any sense at all to dismiss the very many negative outcomes as “no evidence”. Perhaps it’s under-researched, but your comment strikes me as ideological and/or hyperbole. Like with all treatments, it’s a careful balance of whether the risks are worth the positive health outcomes. But there’s no sense in denying that psychedelics, and…

While I agree with what you are saying in principle, I do want to point out that there is a massive difference between anecdotal evidence and _research_. In a purely academic sense, it is not an unreasonable statement to make that there is no evidence. In contrast, in the opioid case there existed scientific evidence of the highly addictive nature of the drugs that was more than just suppressed, they were outright _lied_ about by the pharmaceutical company behind the drug.

> Purdue Pharma created false advertising documents to provide doctors and patients illustrating that time-released OxyContin was less addictive than other immediate release alternatives. Furthermore, they sought out doctors who were more likely to prescribe opioids and encouraged them to prescribe OxyContin because it was safer. They did this because OxyContin quickly became a cash cow for the company. (https://oversight.house.gov/release/comer-purdue-pharma-and-...)

A degree of malfeasance in the same realm as Big Tobacco's denials of the risks and addictiveness of smoking:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/big-tobacco-kept-cancer-risk-in... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2879177/

Although, perhaps could be considered worse since it occurred more recently in a theoretically more highly regulated market than mid 1900's tobacco.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#233

Post by [deleted] »

kemayo wrote: post #216
sixQuarks wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread found me at the perfect time I swear. A friend of mine just gave me a huge amount of shrooms. I've always been excited about microdosing, so I tried my first .4 grams the other day and felt a great layer of good vibes that day. I was going to increase the dose, knowing it's not really microdosing and figuring I could do this on a regular basis. I'm now taking this thread as a sign to slow my roll.

For what it's worth, from my understanding, you've got a lot of room before that even hits what's considered a "normal" recreational dose -- which I think is around 3.5g of dried psilocybin. Broadly speaking, if you don't have a history of bipolar / schizophrenia, it sounds like you'd be pretty safe from lasting consequences. Separately, "bad trips" mostly seem to happen when you go towards higher than normal doses,…

[deleted]

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#234

Post by adolph »

kykeonaut wrote: post #68
legitster wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we could be saying the same thing about psychedelics in 30 years time. "Wow, everyone knew psychedelics were bad for hundreds of years! What were medical professionals doing recommending them in the 2020s?" I understand that we are not talking about the same specific mechanism (addiction), but I also want to keep my eyes open and not blindly stumble into the same broader category of problem all over again.

Except, we have known for centuries that psylocibe is benign. The Nahua people in Mexico's Central Valley people have been using them for ceremonial purposes for centuries with no addictive side effects ever reported; its use even being described in Spanish colonial codices [0]. They are only "new" to the Western culture. In contrast, we have known for centuries that opioids are extremely addictive. [1] [0] https://w…

> using them for ceremonial purposes for centuries with no addictive side effects

A key caveat is "ceremonial." Was it available at the Nahua corner store?

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#235

Post by kawhah »

explaininjs wrote: post #231
kawhah wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. ok, so the word 'kinda' is not an essential part of the doctrine, got it. 2. 'profound and incomprehensible suffering' - what is Jesus supposed to have suffered which is different from many other humans who have been betrayed, tortured and killed? Whatever you think it is, it appears to be extra-biblical. The Gethsemane quote is just "my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death". Allowing for loss in transla…

Rather, the lack of the word "kinda" is an essential part of the doctrine. And everyone is affected: even if they may not be saved, they are all still resurrected in the end days. This is uncontroversial, and documented throughout the bible. Here is a summary: https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/will-all-people-be-resu...

Actually, it's super controversial, even among Christians. If it is documented through the Bible, that's not evinced by your link (to a conservative Evangelical website), which only cites Acts and John, two very closely related parts of the Bible. And neither of those says anything about the resurrection of those who are not saved happening because of Jesus's sacrifice.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#236

Post by kawhah »

2devnull wrote: post #196
kawhah wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so the middle-brow infotainment psych blogger's essay is valid, but meta-analyses are 'fundamentally flawed' because 'different SSRIs affect people differently'? This news will probably come as a huge surprise to the psychiatric epidemiologists who carried out the peer-reviewed research that Alexander mangles! They probably thought all SSRIs were exactly the same!

“psychiatric epidemiologist“ I was with you up to this. What even is a “psychiatric epidemiologist” I had to look it up, “It is a subfield of the more general epidemiology. It has roots in sociological studies of the early 20th century. However, while sociological exposures are still widely studied in psychiatric epidemiology, the field has since expanded to the study of a wide area of environmental risk factors, suc…

Good rebuttal. The person who did the peer-reviewed statistical research is wrong because Wikipedia describes their discipline as related to sociology.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#237

Post by adolph »

TylerE wrote: post #198
aurareturn wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said the same thing about weed - that you don’t have any physical dependency. A quick search on Reddit would show you countless people who say they’re physically unable to function without weed anymore. Withdrawal symptoms include insomnia, depression, brain fog, lack of appetite, lack of energy, shaking, etc. This is especially true of people who started using it when they were young and people who use high THC…

Those are MENTAL withdrawal symptoms, not PHYSICAL ones. Basically the worst the happens is "Man, I really wish I had some weed right now", not hallucinations or the shakes or seizures, as can occur with alcohol or opiods. That's what people mean by physical dependency.

> Those are MENTAL withdrawal symptoms, not PHYSICAL ones.

That is an interesting line to draw. Are "MENTAL withdrawal symptoms" not neurological in nature? Are "hallucinations or the shakes or seizures" not based in neurology?

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#238

Post by johnnyworker »

ensignavenger wrote: post #212
kawhah wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part of the following is not believed by most Christians? > That God kinda-became human to "sacrifice" himself (with no loss, got up 3 days later to live forever, nothing was sacrificed) in order to forgive the sins of people, but only if they believe it

All of it? Specifically, the 'kind-of' - most Christians beleive Jesus was fully human/mortal. 'with no loss'- most Christians beleive Jesus gave the ultimate sacrifice, not only his mortal life, bit also profound and incomphrensible suffering (don't forget the events in Gethsemane, not just at the hands of the Sanhedrin and the Romans). Also his sacrifice went far beyond forgiving sins of beleivers. It included the…

I said "kinda" because I didn't want to get into the whole trinity stuff, since it's besides the point to me. But I agree that many Christians, and Muslims, and Jews (and other monotheists) are great people, my last paragraph was a bit harsh. I know many of those people would be happy for everyone to go to heaven, or paradise, or at least find peace in death, whatever it may be, they pray for them, and not just to get brownie points but out of genuine compassion. I know that.

But in my opinion, it's because they're better than the religion. That is their humanity, such humanity is not found in the source materials. I can only speak for myself: in my early 20s, I was confused and deeply in pain about the state of the world, and through a series of coincidences (or signs from God :P) I ended up kinda, vaguely, believing in it. I wanted to believe in it. But I could not get over my empathy for everyone: if everybody isn't saved, nobody is saved. Not to mention that "saving" someone from the wrath you inflict on someone for not believing you saved them is equal parts crazy and abusive. Jesus can mock the wise and laud the wide-eyed children all he wants, but even in the deepest depths of my desperation I could not accept it. I read the stuff, I think about it, and I'm out.

My beef isn't with God, if it exists. But I do have beef with religion, yes. Disappointed with the Bible, I turned to the Quran, found the exact same content with even more bragging. And something about "Jesus can save you (if you let him)" did kinda trigger me, since the Bible says, nobody can come to God lest they get pulled. So don't blame people for not getting pulled, that's victim blaming.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#239

Post by InSteady »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #211
Podgajski wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psilocybin works in sort of the same way as SSRI. SSRIs will keep around the serotonin we make, but the problem is, if we’re not making enough serotonin in the first place they won’t be effective. Psilocybin on the other hand acts kind of like the serotonin molecule itself. It attaches to most of the serotonin receptors, including the two receptor. The reason why it works for so long is you get such a huge and strong…

I believe that we are pretty sure that serotonin has nothing to do with how SSRIs alleviate depression, despite the name.

I believe the only thing we are pretty sure about is that we don't know why SSRIs work.

What we believe we know is that low serotonin in the brain does not directly cause depression, and artificially lowering serotonin in individuals does not induce depression (at least not in the way researchers have done so, within the time limits they measured).

None of this necessarily means that SSRI activity downregulating the reuptake of serotonin is not the primary mechanism of action (pharmacologically speaking, it definitely is the main thing this class of drug is doing in the body).

It's worth noting that we also have a ton of serotonin receptors in our GI tract, and SSRIs do have notable activity there as well, to the point that they can relieve chronic constipation in some individuals. Although levels of serotonin outside the brain (which represent 95% of serotonin produced by the body and our microbes) generally get ignored in analysis of depression, since serotonin cannot cross the blood brain barrier, it may well be very relevant to human health, both physical and mental, for as yet unknown reasons.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#240

Post by TylerE »

adolph wrote: post #237
TylerE wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are MENTAL withdrawal symptoms, not PHYSICAL ones. Basically the worst the happens is "Man, I really wish I had some weed right now", not hallucinations or the shakes or seizures, as can occur with alcohol or opiods. That's what people mean by physical dependency.

> Those are MENTAL withdrawal symptoms, not PHYSICAL ones. That is an interesting line to draw. Are "MENTAL withdrawal symptoms" not neurological in nature? Are "hallucinations or the shakes or seizures" not based in neurology?

The DTs from alcohol withdrawal can outright kill you. That’s the line I draw. Similar for other meds that have very unpleasant effects if you don’t taper off over weeks or even months.
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