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Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

nytimes.com

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Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#31

Post by alex_lav »

acchow wrote: post #28
swalling wrote: post #3

What's missing from this article is that people are reaching for this because the standard medical treatment for these disorders, SSRIs, are pretty terrible. In the mild case, the common side effects are blunting of your emotions and sexual dysfunction. So you don't have panic attacks, but you live in a gray fog and your relationships suffer. In the worst case, they cause suicidal ideation. Psychedelics also have psy…

> SSRIs, are pretty terrible They're terrible for some people, but they work well for others. I don't think they should automatically be disregarded. > In the worst case, they cause suicidal ideation Is this actually true? My understanding is that people in severe depression can have suicidal ideation but not actually be able to put in the effort/energy needed to go through with it. SSRIs initially give you a little…

> Is this actually true? My understanding is that people in severe depression can have suicidal ideation but not actually be able to put in the effort/energy needed to go through with it.

It seems like you forgot the word "ideation" is in the original claim you're disputing, based on your description. Yes it is true that SSRIs can cause suicidal _ideation_. And the first step to suicide is suicidal ideation.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#32

Post by legitster »

peddling-brink wrote: post #24
legitster wrote: post #17

I'm a fairly drug-averse person. I have no qualms about other people using them, but it took us over 30 years to really understand the implications of legalized opioids. And that was after a lengthy and expensive FDA process. So respect to all of the early adopters who have nothing to lose and are willing to put their own sanity at risk. I just don't understand people who in one breath curse the Sackler family but th…

I dunno, The Good Earth was written in 1931 and didn’t exactly paint a great picture of opioids. People have been using these drugs for a very long time. Their affects are fairly well known. Opioids are addictive, mushrooms are not. That singular fact makes them very very different.

I mean, we could be saying the same thing about psychedelics in 30 years time. "Wow, everyone knew psychedelics were bad for hundreds of years! What were medical professionals doing recommending them in the 2020s?"

I understand that we are not talking about the same specific mechanism (addiction), but I also want to keep my eyes open and not blindly stumble into the same broader category of problem all over again.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#33

Post by renewiltord »

grigri907 wrote: post #26
legitster wrote: post #17

I'm a fairly drug-averse person. I have no qualms about other people using them, but it took us over 30 years to really understand the implications of legalized opioids. And that was after a lengthy and expensive FDA process. So respect to all of the early adopters who have nothing to lose and are willing to put their own sanity at risk. I just don't understand people who in one breath curse the Sackler family but th…

I too am fairly drug-averse. And after 40 years of avoiding all drugs but caffeine and alcohol, I dipped my toe into psilocybin and found not only was it profoundly therapeutic in terms of self-acceptence, self-love, and anxiety-reduction, I found after 3 or 4 uses, I had no further interest in it whatsoever. Is my experience universal? Of course not, but an anecdote to consider alongside yours.

That’s the funny thing, eh? No real desire to do it. Negative feedback loop. Same here.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#34

Post by alex_lav »

legitster wrote: post #17

I'm a fairly drug-averse person. I have no qualms about other people using them, but it took us over 30 years to really understand the implications of legalized opioids. And that was after a lengthy and expensive FDA process. So respect to all of the early adopters who have nothing to lose and are willing to put their own sanity at risk. I just don't understand people who in one breath curse the Sackler family but th…

This is such a wild oversimplication it's almost meaningless. "If you believe bad people could exist, how can you believe other people could be good?"

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#35

Post by [deleted] »

suzzer99 wrote: post #9
swalling wrote: post #3

What's missing from this article is that people are reaching for this because the standard medical treatment for these disorders, SSRIs, are pretty terrible. In the mild case, the common side effects are blunting of your emotions and sexual dysfunction. So you don't have panic attacks, but you live in a gray fog and your relationships suffer. In the worst case, they cause suicidal ideation. Psychedelics also have psy…

As far as the risks, I have a friend who's been "microdosing" acid and shrooms for a while, and recently had a legitimate psychotic break, thinking all of her life-long friends were in some kind of Truman Show-esque grand conspiracy against her. She ditched town and cut us all off for over a month. I can't say the drug use caused it, but I and the rest of her friends are of the opinion that it contributed (we all hav…

[deleted]

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#36

Post by coffeebeqn »

suzzer99 wrote: post #16
uoaei wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know that the microdosing also turned into macrodosing on a lot of occasions. It's pretty easy to slip into this. I don't have a good answer for solving this but criminalization is definitely a bad answer, so we will have to find a way to discourage such tendencies. It may be that it is mostly or entirely a cultural thing in which case public understanding of the drug is a prerequisite, so I'm glad more are star…

Yeah I'm not arguing shrooms should be illegal. I don't think they're any worse than pot, and actually are the one drug I think everyone should do. But I think there are some serious risks to heavy, prolonged use that probably aren't well-studied or understood. Also for all I know her problems stem from the acid and not the shrooms.

They are certainly an order of magnitude more powerful than pot. You can fairly easily have a psychologically very difficult experience at larger doses.

I’m all for people trying them but the effects shouldn’t be underestimated. I’ve had powerful feelings of anxiety, love, euphoria, mania or sadness on different times. Very different from pot which has a pretty uniform and predictable effect on me.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#37

Post by tpm »

hunter2_ wrote: post #15
uoaei wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know that the microdosing also turned into macrodosing on a lot of occasions. It's pretty easy to slip into this. I don't have a good answer for solving this but criminalization is definitely a bad answer, so we will have to find a way to discourage such tendencies. It may be that it is mostly or entirely a cultural thing in which case public understanding of the drug is a prerequisite, so I'm glad more are star…

Could this be the manifestation of an overdose? I'm not a medical professional, but this got me curious what the "LD99" would be for avoiding this (not literally lethal, but long term dibilitation), or if it's statistically unclear?

It's very very unclear. One person can hit heroic doses (200-1000 micrograms of LSD or equivalent of mushrooms) and be completely fine afterwards, another can have a small, usually safe dose and have long-term issues. There are studies done to detect who will be susceptible to this, but there is no clear answer yet (aside from people with family history of bipolar or schizophrenia).

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#38

Post by Broken_Hippo »

legitster wrote: post #17

I'm a fairly drug-averse person. I have no qualms about other people using them, but it took us over 30 years to really understand the implications of legalized opioids. And that was after a lengthy and expensive FDA process. So respect to all of the early adopters who have nothing to lose and are willing to put their own sanity at risk. I just don't understand people who in one breath curse the Sackler family but th…

Opiods are only legal in some circumstances: We've known about opium addiction for centuries. Heck, we had the Opium Wars.

That's not really what happened with the current pills, though. They were touted as not being addictive in the same way as opium.

And then we prescribed them, didn't (and don't) offer realistic talks about how addiction starts with them, aren't giving people sick time so they are less likely to need them, putting folks in jail for using things like pot instead, and aren't giving folks affordable and medicine-based help if they do happen to get addicted. And then, if they do happen to get addicted, we treat them like a pill-seeking addict for many years, if not for life.

We know other things cause dependency - it isn't just opioids - but we are better at having conversations around them and better at making sure to taper folks (and so on).

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#39

Post by aurareturn »

vore wrote: post #23
legitster wrote: post #17

I'm a fairly drug-averse person. I have no qualms about other people using them, but it took us over 30 years to really understand the implications of legalized opioids. And that was after a lengthy and expensive FDA process. So respect to all of the early adopters who have nothing to lose and are willing to put their own sanity at risk. I just don't understand people who in one breath curse the Sackler family but th…

We do have some understanding of the safety profile of psilocybin, even if its Schedule I status makes it hard to research. At the very least, it doesn’t have physical dependency like opioids. However, the lack of significant safety research does make it hard to determine the incidence of development of disorders like HPPD but, unlike opioids, I can’t imagine someone wanting to continue taking psilocybin after develo…

They said the same thing about weed - that you don’t have any physical dependency.

A quick search on Reddit would show you countless people who say they’re physically unable to function without weed anymore. Withdrawal symptoms include insomnia, depression, brain fog, lack of appetite, lack of energy, shaking, etc.

This is especially true of people who started using it when they were young and people who use high THC products.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#40

Post by swalling »

davmre wrote: post #19
swalling wrote: post #3

What's missing from this article is that people are reaching for this because the standard medical treatment for these disorders, SSRIs, are pretty terrible. In the mild case, the common side effects are blunting of your emotions and sexual dysfunction. So you don't have panic attacks, but you live in a gray fog and your relationships suffer. In the worst case, they cause suicidal ideation. Psychedelics also have psy…

Counterpoint: SSRIs were transformative for my depression. Side effects were minor and manageable (eg, Wellbutrin worked well to prevent any sexual dysfunction). I was on them for several years and had no problem tapering off. My understanding is that this is a pretty typical experience. Rhetoric like this was actively harmful in dissuading me for years from trying what ended up being by far the most effective treatm…

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I think in my part my negative reaction is, like many people, having observed the effects of SSRIs on young people. It's well known that risks like suicidal ideation are actually higher among those under 25, and in general it is awful to see the mental health crisis among young people dealt with primarily via instantly reaching toward semi-permanent medication, rather than considering other treatments.

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