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How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

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Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#121

Post by wolverine876 »

Someone wrote: post #76

I couldn’t find a mention of oxygen usage. Given that running at speed is aerobic past 800m or so (for Olympic-level athletes. Mortals hit that point way earlier), would athletes actually be able to make the extra effort?

My understanding is that a species' maximimum speed depends simply on muscle mass. The reason elephants don't outrun cheetahs is that they accelerate more slowly and run out of energy before hitting the top speed their muscles could produce.

Look up allometry for more. There are formulas for calculating top speed based on mass.

Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#122

Post by hinkley »

stouset wrote: post #106
jeffbee wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a large amount of power meter data demonstrating that elite and pro cyclists do not, in fact, exert much force on the rising stroke when in the saddle. They maintain a net downward force on the pedal most of the time. The benefit of clipless pedals is repeatable positioning and the ability to start the downstroke right at top dead center, without slipping off the pedal. The benefit is not from powering the ba…

Yet cycling events are frequently won out of the saddle on the slopes or out of the saddle in the sprint. And yes, sometimes they’re won by someone time trialing away from the pack while in the saddle. But even then, most of the time it’s a breakaway pack which fights for the podium in an all-out sprint.

The breakaway pack also typically sprints away from the peloton. Because drafting is 30% easier than riding at the front. If you don’t catch a wheel as it goes past, you’re dropped.

I’m looking around at all this ”data that we have about pedal strokes” and nobody mentions sprinters or climbing specialists. If they don’t know it’s important they won’t test for it. Sounds like “science” being done by domain neophytes and called objective.

What is interesting though is that one claimed that advanced amateurs have higher peak stroke torque than pros. Pros are spreading more power out over a larger arc of the circle. Now that could still be 130° of the stroke for all I know but that still sounds like circularizing to me.

I also haven’t found anyone yet who says LeMond was wrong about driving through the bottom of the stroke, which is how I rode.

Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#124

Post by davidw »

asoneth wrote: post #64

Their model seems to predict a theoretical top speed of 18-20.9m/s (or 40.0-46.8mph, 64.8-75.2kph): https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aay1950#F2 As much as I want to imagine people chasing down cheetahs, without empirical testing I have to admit I am skeptical of their claims.

I'm envisioning the movie version, where there's a montage of the scientists crashing time and time again before they get it right.

Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#125

Post by moron4hire »

arcanemachiner wrote: post #112
moron4hire wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if that would do anything for my plantar fascitis... I made a mistake in shoe choice for a vacation one year, before I knew how much my wife absolutely insists on walking at least 10 miles a day. That was 8 years ago and I still have pretty severe pain almost every morning.

I beat the shit out of my plantar fascia when I took to longboarding one summer. I basically had to stop any recreational walking for a year. I tried the Vibram FiveFingers and I think they helped (yes, I know about the lawsuit: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27335251 ), but my equation for recovery is rest + time then gentle strengthening (and luck I guess, in the case of my plantar fasciitis). And ergonomic ever…

I have one particular pair of dress shoes that are the most comfortable for me right now, even more so than my sneakers. I think it might be the rise of the heel, plus they were always pretty comfortable getting the start. I basically heal over the week while I'm sitting at work and then redamage over the weekend when I'm taking my kids out to parks.

Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#126

Post by moron4hire »

mikestew wrote: post #114
moron4hire wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if that would do anything for my plantar fascitis... I made a mistake in shoe choice for a vacation one year, before I knew how much my wife absolutely insists on walking at least 10 miles a day. That was 8 years ago and I still have pretty severe pain almost every morning.

I am NOT anyone with relevant credentials, just a lot of running over the last 40 some years in a lot of shoes. That said, I no reason to think that VaporFlys would help with plantar fasciitis. I hypothesize that it's the energy return (which is energy not pounding the legs) is what saves the legs, and I don't know that help plantar problems. And the shoes are designed around running, not walking. Mainly, though, is…

My thinking is that a spring that can provide power also absorbs power. Basically a low-pass filter, like a capacitor. IDK. I've tried the socks, the boots you wear while you try to sleep but can't because they itch too much, and all kinds of shoes. Honestly, I'm at the point where I'll try just about anything.

Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#127

Post by hinkley »

tourist2d wrote: post #82
rhn_mk1 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are not necessarily examples of lifting . Those could as well be explained by the contribution of not pressing on the opposite pedal (to keep the foot from sliding). And not pressing doesn't shine any light on the force of lifting.

> to keep the foot from sliding So you obviously have never used clip in bike pedals before. Why are you trying to argue this point if you know nothing about what you're talking about?

We are perhaps not the best group on the internet for discussing biomechanics...

Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#128

Post by hinkley »

Someone wrote: post #57
hinkley wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reason pro cyclists clip their feet to their pedals is so they can load the “other” leg through the back of the stroke, and across the bottom as well by pulling back on the loaded leg. Come unclipped in a sprint and you’re fucked. Sounds like this is the same thing for running.

> Come unclipped in a sprint and you’re fucked. Not necessarily :-) See https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/famenne-ardenne-classic/20... for an example where that happened and the sprinter still won.

Jesus.

Well momentum can be your friend or your enemy.

It looks like not only did he pull his foot out, he also clipped his chain or front derailleur with his foot and popped himself down into the small chainring.

Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#129

Post by hinkley »

jackmott42 wrote: post #73
jph wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, elliptical chainrings are great IMHO, especially if you train for elliptical continual exertion. Added 2km to my speed.

No it did not.

It's not that far above what some people were claiming when they were new. There were people claiming 1mph improvement. I was... skeptical. Placebo effect? Who knows.

I don't think I ever got around to trying one. I was the youngest regular member of our club. Power output was not my primary problem.

Re: How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)

#130

Post by Forgeties79 »

moron4hire wrote: post #109
mikestew wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmmm, not quite. The ones you and I can buy have a single plate, and stack height of 36mm. The ban was for shoes (like the VaporFly prototype) with >40mm stack height and/or multiple plates. Not that this article clears the matter a whole lot, but there is more information (sorry, couldn't find a succinct article on the topic): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nike-vaporfly-running-sneaker-n... I've used them (as a ~3:00…

I wonder if that would do anything for my plantar fascitis... I made a mistake in shoe choice for a vacation one year, before I knew how much my wife absolutely insists on walking at least 10 miles a day. That was 8 years ago and I still have pretty severe pain almost every morning.

Hey there! I don’t know what you’ve done to treat it so far, but I am somebody who went through a year and a half of very painful plantar fasciitis after a few years of moderate pain. I tried every single solution under the sun and am actually “cured”! Some unsolicited input, if you want:

1) Kuru tennis shoes with an insert for PF are excellent. 2) Oofos slippers by my bedside even today. They provide such good relief 3) aleve > other pain meds 4) the PF splint which stretches out your foot cN work wonders

I ultimately had to get my plantar fascia released, my inflammation had just become so severe there was no other option. I’m really glad I did it though, it’s been completely gone ever since. My foot feels fantastic now, though the recovery was a little long. I was walking around after a few weeks but I didn’t feel 100% until probably eight or 10 months out. I still use all of the above and it has yet to return. But they were also incredibly effective at managing my pain/inflammation. I just had them recommended too late in the process.

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