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Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

electrek.co

191–200 of 217 posts

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning a gas car will become inconvenient and expensive very soon. The number of gas stations has gone down from 202K to 115K, ~50% down[1]. Gas stations make very little money on gas, most of their income is from people buying cigarette, lotteries, lotto, beer, beverages, and some trinkets in the store. All profits are at the margins. When foot traffic drops, even by 10 - 20%, gas stations are not viable. They can i…

You're citing a decline in gas stations that happened during a period where EVs' share of new vehicle sales went from being nonexistent to, at the very tail end, low single digits. So, obviously other factors were driving that trend, and unless you want to claim that gas sales were trending toward zero even in the absence of any alternative, I think we have to assume that the gas sales industry was continuing to meet…

> So, obviously other factors were driving that trend

Yes, gas sales are nearly zero in US, they are just starting. I agree other factors were driving that trend. Probably gas stations figuring out that its not a viable business. But now, EV sales have started. 25% of cars sold in California are EVs and growing. If gas stations have gone down 50% (202K to 115K) without any EVs, we can predict they will go down faster with EVs.

> gas sales industry was continuing to meet consumer demand

There is no consumer demand for gas sales, any more than there is a demand for whale oil or kerosene. There is a consumer demand for lighting, and whale oil, then kerosene were used in lamps obsoleted by electric lamps. Similarly, there is a consumer demand for going from point A to point B, most people are not gas-holics, they'll use whatever fuel is cheapest (first and foremost) and convenient. Well, EVs are most convenient, you can charge anywhere you park, it is hard to think of any building (home, work, shop) without electricity. If the biggest challenge that mankind is faced with is running a cable from a building to parking lot and we fail spectacularly at that, we are doomed. However, we have precedence that we can do this. Standard oil is built in consumer demand for lighting and kerosene lamps. When light bulb was invented, its not just about convincing people to buy electric lamps. It is also about doing the far harder things of producing electricity and distributing it. This grid was built and people switched to electric lamps. So, I am someone confident people will figure out how to run a cable from a building to parking spot. US has 2 billion parking spots and ~250 million cars, just converting a small fraction to EVs is enough.

An EV is a bigger breakthrough than a smartphone (which is primarily a content/addiction delivery mechanism). An EV solves energy storage, an unsolved problem of civilization. EVs can provide passive income. Folks who participated in a VPP pilot with powerwalls made $150/day [1], this is the very definition of passive income. A powerwall has 13.5kWh capacity vs car batteries of 80kWh, there is nothing preventing cars from supplying power to the grid at peak prices and making bank. Most of our electricity bill is for peak power, which is from costly natural gas peaker plants. These will all be replaced.

Next, there is significant curtailment of renewables, which overproduce and there is no demand. Power prices go negative (200 million times/year [2]), which means an EV owner can be paid for the privilege of charging his car. I can think of at least a few people who'd be interested in getting paid for charging their car, or even charge for free.

An EV is primarily an energy storage device (idle in parking lot 95% of the time), which provides elastic demand, as well as supply. Nothing else on the grid has this capability. This capability changes things permanently. Think of a time before information storage, youtube/instagram/tiktok -- all of this content and businesses were not possible before we figured out how to store information (hard disks, ssds). EVs bring that capability. This is a significant civilization upgrade that will enable many things in the future.

[1] https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-repo... [2] Wholesale prices went negative about 200 million times across the seven US grids in 2021: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/trapped-r...

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#192
post #70
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not applicable to NYC, but isnt it kind of troubling that people who cant afford a luxury vehicle (55-100k) could be put in a position where they have to spend more money (gas) to go fill up out of their way, taxed for being poor, or shut up and take public transit (if it even exists where they live)? Surely no one driving an EV ever got to their position to buy one driving an ICE. Edit: happy this comment in…

I think it’s more troubling to view owning a car as a base right that everyone should have. It’s better as a luxury. We want fewer cars and for people to live in walkable areas where cars are not needed.

In short, high density housing, apartments. Not everyone wants to rent a little apartment the rest of their lives, particularly with the incredible limitations they bring with what you can do at home. There's a whole world out there that apartment dwellers can't participate in, and most people would prefer not to live in an apartment if given the choice and the financial means.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#193
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s more troubling to view owning a car as a base right that everyone should have. It’s better as a luxury. We want fewer cars and for people to live in walkable areas where cars are not needed.

In short, high density housing, apartments. Not everyone wants to rent a little apartment the rest of their lives, particularly with the incredible limitations they bring with what you can do at home. There's a whole world out there that apartment dwellers can't participate in, and most people would prefer not to live in an apartment if given the choice and the financial means.

That’s fine but it’s not a fantasy that we should be specifically subsidizing for people that cannot afford it.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#194
post #76
post #58

Motor fuel sales cannot be the sole main indicator for a "death spiral that can end oil". Oil/Petroleum products are massively employed in the manufacture of daily life items (pretty much maybe everything, not just plastics) and cutting the usage of petroleum products in that area will be the real death spiral that can end oil.

I think we only really care about the oil being burned, not merely used as chemical feedstock. In this regard we do also have to care about oil fuel heating, oil fuelled power stations, and the transport that uses oil derivatives but not normal petrol stations (flying, shipping, non-electrified rail, probably some others too), so I would still say this is a good start rather than the actual end of oil, but for differ…

[deleted]

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not too hard to imagine parking meters having charging ports.

That's a first step, but I don't see parking meters in US suburbs. Some barely have streetlights.

though, In the suburbs, you're more likely to have a house with a garage where there can be a charging port.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#196
post #79
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see convenient charging stations? Tesla shows 4 superchargers in all of Manhattan and 3 in Brooklyn, not including 3rd party stations that can take 2 hours to charge the car. What is the population of Manhattan and Brooklyn?

You don’t need the superchargers

Oh yes, because people in Manhattan lives usually have driveway. Of course.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#197
post #82

Fishy click bait title. The reason electric is so popular is that ICE vehicles get taxed 100% and electrics are not. Remove the incentives and I suspect the market would be different.

It's a case study on what could happen if EV's become cheaper than gasoline vehicles. It doesn't really matter if the shift happens due to subsidies or market forces.

Basically this study has figured out that if you subsidize Ferraris, people are going to ride in Ferraris. But the moment you will stop subsidizing them people will return back to normal cars.

Absolute majority of countries does not have a capital of Norway to subsidize on such a large scale.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#198
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not applicable to NYC, but isnt it kind of troubling that people who cant afford a luxury vehicle (55-100k) could be put in a position where they have to spend more money (gas) to go fill up out of their way, taxed for being poor, or shut up and take public transit (if it even exists where they live)? Surely no one driving an EV ever got to their position to buy one driving an ICE. Edit: happy this comment in…

Basically all EV sales are new EVs and the used EV market is still very hot. There will be a lot more “cheap” EVs in 5-10 years as the first EVs depreciate and sell for $3,000 type thing.

It is crazy how fast that is happening here in the UK. Just over a year ago a friend bought an ev VW Golf and was convinced by the delay telling him the current resale value for a year old 2nd hand ev Golf was only a 10% drop.

He took the car to tide him over to a great deal we were supposed to be getting at work on EV cars. Went back to sell the car to the dealer and the chap said best he could offer would be £8k (well over a 50 percent drop), and he actually didn't want it even at that price as he had 5 on his forecourt already.

Last summer we wanted an automatic, and vaguely looked at EVs - and they were totally out of our budget. This year we totally could have bought one.

I'd say it is possible to geta £5k ev here in the uk now, and in the next year or two it will get even better for the 2nd hand market.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#199
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is when your standard for "rich" is framed in terms of "can afford to buy good boots".

Which is not the definition implied by the original quote so great. We agree.

What are you even talking about? This is literally called "boots theory" and is explicitly giving boots as an example. That's what "framing in terms of" means.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With many cars now you get V2L charging, so you can use the giant battery in your car to power your fridge. You have to keep your car charged, but that is easy to do if you have a charger at home.

So you're saying that something like Powerwall will be the backup power solution? An additional $15,000?

A power wall 3 is 13.5kWh, many evs are 40 to 100kWh
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