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Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#81

Post by justatdotin »

nullindividual wrote: post #51
progmetaldev wrote: post #40

I'm more interested in the effects of Ketamine on anxiety. I know that it's not as effective, but haven't seen any statistics specifically related to anxiety. I have gotten my Ketamine through Mindbloom, and just need to schedule my treatment and follow up dates. My depression effects are due to my suffering through anxiety for over 20 years (started in 1999). My anxiety also seemed to correlate with 2 bad trips from…

They will give Ketamine and benzos together as K can cause anxiety symptoms (or terror with a K-hole).

but:

* benzos counteract K

* I always assumed therapeutic doses would embrace the K-hole (at which point, IME, you're so detatched that terror isn't really an option any more)

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#83

Post by agumonkey »

omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

So you think the effects lie at the conceptual/existential plane of our brains rather than the neurobiological one?

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#84

Post by quickthrower2 »

supportengineer wrote: post #28
calibas wrote: post #27

A big part of depression is negative thinking, so it's not too much of a stretch to believe that positive thoughts, like hope, would lessen depression.

In a late-stage capitalism world, where the climate is collapsing, and homes are unaffordable, where does hope come from?

I don’t think those sorts of problems cause depression necessarily.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#85

Post by quickthrower2 »

greenpresident wrote: post #3
ClassyJacket wrote: post #2

This isn't specific to ketamine tho is it? The placebo effect is well studied.

Notably, the placebo effect usually only effects suffer reported symptoms as in this case. It’s a folk wisdom that it has physiological effects, which is often not true.

So placebo effects accuracy of self reporting? Making perhaps less or perhaps more accurate than without?

I get this. Especially rating emotions 1 to 10 etc.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#86

Post by raydiatian »

Aurornis wrote: post #73
omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

> I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. Ketamine dosed at levels used in a lot of the original depression studies won’t result in anything resembling a “trip”. Many of the more res…

> at levels that only result in a little dizziness.

Anecdotal first hand account, I would have to completely disagree with you. I tried intravenous ketamine therapy about a year ago. I’m plenty experienced with psychoactives, having experienced several at varying doses, so I knew what I was in for. My IVKT experience was a full on trip, definitely not just passive dizziness.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#87

Post by suzzer99 »

Related to the psychological vs. physiological discussion: I can say with confidence that the first time I did ecstasy changed how I look at the world. We went for a walk barefoot on warm pavement and it was the most wonderful thing I ever felt. I realized on a visceral level that so much of our personal happiness is based on how we look at things, not what happens to us.

I don't know if I got any chemical benefit from subsequent use, other than fun (with the consistently worsening serotonin crash afterwards). But just being able to step outside my usual angsty 19-year-old brain for a few hours had a profound effect.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#88

Post by format997 »

nullindividual wrote: post #70
omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

I find this... frustrating to read, at the least. This post assumes that all depression is a _lack_ of something external to the body. Or that depression is simply a chemical imbalance. It takes no accounting of physical deficiencies that can _never_ be cured and require a lifetime of maintenance, of which Ketamine can be (literally) lifesaving. The post is irresponsible. No one should be thinking that some sort of "…

I mean, I guess it depends on what the truth is. Clearly the two of you have very different perspectives on what the underlying cause of depression or mental illness is. If your view is incorrect, it could also be equally irresponsible, could it not?

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#89

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

>Even in blinded trials in which participants are not told which they received, ketamine’s oftentimes trippy effects are a dead giveaway.

How about randomizing between ketamine and some other drug that makes people trip?

At a certain point you have to wonder if any sufficiently trippy experience helps with depression, anesthesia included.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#90

Post by Spivak »

nullindividual wrote: post #70
omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

I find this... frustrating to read, at the least. This post assumes that all depression is a _lack_ of something external to the body. Or that depression is simply a chemical imbalance. It takes no accounting of physical deficiencies that can _never_ be cured and require a lifetime of maintenance, of which Ketamine can be (literally) lifesaving. The post is irresponsible. No one should be thinking that some sort of "…

I feel like depression as a term is overloaded because it's a description of a symptom rather than a particular cause.

If you're depressed because you have a chemical imbalance then you're a great candidate for SSRIs and the like. Serotonin? In this economy?

If you're depressed because your life is miserable in some fashion then there's a lot of potential options but this sounds like what you're talking about with K as one treatment.

If you're depressed, you don't respond to SSRIs and "my life is good, why am I still like this?" describes you I think the parent is saying that transcendence is potentially one treatment for this.

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