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Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

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Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#131

Post by Modified3019 »

For those now curious about taking an SSRI, please carefully research the sometimes permanent issues that can arise. It is not a class of medication to play around with. Things like:

- Sexual dysfunction. Unable to maintain physical arousal or reach orgasm. Mental arousal may be hyper or hypo active. You take having a working dick for granted until it stops working.

- Tinnitus

- Depression/suicidal ideation. It should be noted that “suicidal ideation” less typically expresses as a direct “Yeah alright, time to kill myself now” sort of thoughts, which is often called “active ideation”. Instead it’s more often “passive ideation”, something like “I now spend hours in an whirlpool of involuntary negativity, a sort of emotional agony at existing. Daydreaming about dying/disappearing/evaporating is my only source of comfort, and hope for escape”.

- It can fuck with the very important but often ignored mechanisms that determine if your body is satisfied with what and how much you’ve eaten. Imagine the feeling of never quite having eaten enough, or always having eaten too much.

There are other things but those are the big ones I recall offhand. The side effects listed on medications are always horribly understated, because they come without human context.

We don’t actually know how SSRIs (or really, any neurochemical effecting med) work, and have no way of predicting the efficacy or side effects for a given individual yet, outside of trial and error.

Tread extremely carefully.

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#132

Post by piperswe »

Modified3019 wrote: post #131

For those now curious about taking an SSRI, please carefully research the sometimes permanent issues that can arise. It is not a class of medication to play around with. Things like: - Sexual dysfunction. Unable to maintain physical arousal or reach orgasm. Mental arousal may be hyper or hypo active. You take having a working dick for granted until it stops working. - Tinnitus - Depression/suicidal ideation. It shoul…

Can concur. SSRIs are nasty, and waaaay overprescribed IMO. I'm so glad I got off Lexapro, but I haven't been quite the same since before I started it.

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#133

Post by PathOfEclipse »

thenerdhead wrote: post #130
PathOfEclipse wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how you couldn't be bothered to provide a single citation or reference to back up anything you just said. If I wanted to learn how I am wrong, you certainly failed to deliver. > Over 400 long covid publications a month for the last couple years. Let's just assume that statement is true. I said nothing about the quantity of research on long COVID; I said it was inconclusive and largely low-quality. If anything,…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/docsum?fil... https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/51/D1/D1512/6814452 In his video on the paxlovid trials he doesn't even know what the arm sizes are. Let alone take a minute to read the trial designs: > The placebo includes ritonavir, which does not have an effect on the virus, but will help ensure people don’t know whether they are in the Paxlovid or placebo group.…

> I don't care to further argue with you.

If you can't be bothered to make a good argument, then why make one at all? Also, I want to know, what kind of religious world view leads people like yourself to make evidence-less statements with an air of authority and then dig in your heel no matter how much evidence contradicts you?

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/docsum?fil...

Sorry. Linking to 15,000 publications doesn't count as providing a reference. Did that work for you in school?

>https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/51/D1/D1512/6814452

Linking to "300,000" articles also doesn't count as providing a reference, by the way. Let me know what school you went to so I can make sure my kids avoid that one.

> The placebo includes ritonavir, which does not have an effect on the virus, but will help ensure people don’t know whether they are in the Paxlovid or placebo group.

I think his point was that it was a poor choice of placebo.

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirmatrelvir/ritonavir

"Ritonavir is not active against or thought to directly contribute to the antiviral activity of the medication against SARS-CoV-2."

I'm sure you can pick up that there is a difference between "we know for sure it has no relevant impact to the study" and "we think it doesn't have any relevant impact to the study."

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#134

Post by thenerdhead »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #133
thenerdhead wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/docsum?fil... https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/51/D1/D1512/6814452 In his video on the paxlovid trials he doesn't even know what the arm sizes are. Let alone take a minute to read the trial designs: > The placebo includes ritonavir, which does not have an effect on the virus, but will help ensure people don’t know whether they are in the Paxlovid or placebo group.…

> I don't care to further argue with you. If you can't be bothered to make a good argument, then why make one at all? Also, I want to know, what kind of religious world view leads people like yourself to make evidence-less statements with an air of authority and then dig in your heel no matter how much evidence contradicts you? > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/docsum?fil ... Sorry. Linking to 15,00…

I highly doubt you read through the relevant bits and instead jumped to argue further:

> One particular instance is the long-term symptoms experienced by a significant percentage of COVID-19 survivors, a condition named long COVID by the patients affected (4). Some survivors of acute COVID-19 began reporting symptoms lasting much longer than the amount of time then reported for clinical recovery. Long COVID has caused skepticisms and slow responses, and to date, there is no effective treatment (5). In contrast, there is now substantial evidence that a significant percentage of COVID-19 survivors experiencing ongoing multisystemic symptoms (6–8), including respiratory issues (9), cardiovascular disease (10), cognitive impairment (11) and profound fatigue (12).

> LitCovid has so far accumulated almost 10 000 long COVID articles (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/docsum?fil...) and nearly 70% of them do not mention long COVID by name in the title or abstract. We have further collected over 800 synonymous terms for long COVID and shared with the community.

This specific HN thread is a very well done publication. There are a number of prestigious institutions researching long covid and have published in nature, science, cell, jama, and more. Use the tool I just linked so you can confirm that. Perhaps you can stop with the ad hominem.

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#135

Post by VikingCoder »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #113
VikingCoder wrote: post #100

I still think about the HN commentor who told me confidently, "there is no theoretical basis for long-term consequences of COVID-19." [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23875391

Thanks for pointing me to that comment so I could upvote it. His comment is not accurate in that there are plenty of theories, but the general idea behind the claim is far more accurate than what probably many that frequent HN believe about long COVID. Long COVID is poorly understood and the research around it has overall been inconclusive, and much of it very low-quality: https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/long…

Can you help me understand your point of view better? Do you think:

a) We do not have evidence that humans suffer from long-term consequences of COVID-19.

b) We do not know why humans suffer long-term consequences of COVID-19.

c) We have no evidence that COVID-19 could possibly cause long-term consequences.

Because I think the answer you have... is different from the answer that [1] would have.

I think [1] thinks c). And I think you think b) or possibly a).

Or maybe I'm wrong - do you agree with c?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23875391

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#136

Post by PathOfEclipse »

thenerdhead wrote: post #134
PathOfEclipse wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't care to further argue with you. If you can't be bothered to make a good argument, then why make one at all? Also, I want to know, what kind of religious world view leads people like yourself to make evidence-less statements with an air of authority and then dig in your heel no matter how much evidence contradicts you? > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/docsum?fil ... Sorry. Linking to 15,00…

I highly doubt you read through the relevant bits and instead jumped to argue further: > One particular instance is the long-term symptoms experienced by a significant percentage of COVID-19 survivors, a condition named long COVID by the patients affected (4). Some survivors of acute COVID-19 began reporting symptoms lasting much longer than the amount of time then reported for clinical recovery. Long COVID has cause…

> I highly doubt you read through the relevant bits and instead jumped to argue further:

What do the relevant bits you cited have to do with you providing evidence that the research on long covid is high-quality or conclusive? I guess I should define conclusive while I'm here:

1) conclusively defines and scopes long COVID symptoms and disambiguates those symptoms from symptoms of other conditions.

2) conclusively determines the cause(s) of long COVID.

3) conclusively determines a treatment.

We already know, even from your links, that there is little to nothing for 2) or 3), and we can argue that 1) still isn't well-defined to this day.

Here's another direct reference for you from June of this year: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/long-covid-symptoms

Begin Quote:

The World Health Organization (WHO) defines Long COVID as “the continuation or development of new symptoms 3 months after the initial SARS-CoV-2 infection, with these symptoms lasting for at least 2 months with no other explanation.”

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) adds that Long COVID includes a wide range of ongoing health problems that can last weeks, months, or years. The condition can affect any part of the body, and serious cases may affect multiple body systems, including the heart, lungs, kidneys, skin, and brain.

End Quote.

If the definition of symptoms includes any "new symptom" after 3 months "with no other explanation" and if it includes a "wide range of ongoing health problems", then it's pretty clear no one has conclusively scoped out what long COVID is and what it is not. "Oh, I see you're sick and we can't come up with a reason why. Let's chalk it up long COVID!"

And, of course, the best quote: "Long COVID, the condition where symptoms that surface after recovering from COVID-19 linger for weeks, months, or even years, is still a mystery to doctors and researchers.".

So there you have it. Thousands of research articles, no conclusive set of symptoms, no conclusive causes, no conclusive treatments, and still a mystery to researchers.

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#137

Post by thenerdhead »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #136
thenerdhead wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt you read through the relevant bits and instead jumped to argue further: > One particular instance is the long-term symptoms experienced by a significant percentage of COVID-19 survivors, a condition named long COVID by the patients affected (4). Some survivors of acute COVID-19 began reporting symptoms lasting much longer than the amount of time then reported for clinical recovery. Long COVID has cause…

> I highly doubt you read through the relevant bits and instead jumped to argue further: What do the relevant bits you cited have to do with you providing evidence that the research on long covid is high-quality or conclusive? I guess I should define conclusive while I'm here: 1) conclusively defines and scopes long COVID symptoms and disambiguates those symptoms from symptoms of other conditions. 2) conclusively det…

Go read my upvoted comment on this post. It gives you insights into #1 and #2. #3 doesn't exist. That's why there's over 800(400 long covid, 400 covid) clinical trials going on right now for it.

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#138

Post by PathOfEclipse »

thenerdhead wrote: post #137
PathOfEclipse wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I highly doubt you read through the relevant bits and instead jumped to argue further: What do the relevant bits you cited have to do with you providing evidence that the research on long covid is high-quality or conclusive? I guess I should define conclusive while I'm here: 1) conclusively defines and scopes long COVID symptoms and disambiguates those symptoms from symptoms of other conditions. 2) conclusively det…

Go read my upvoted comment on this post. It gives you insights into #1 and #2. #3 doesn't exist. That's why there's over 800(400 long covid, 400 covid) clinical trials going on right now for it.

Well, here's your first link: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...

It says nothing remotely conclusive about 1), 2), or 3). It literally only says "Here's some hypotheses. We need more research."

And I think I'm done wasting my time with you. I've given you ample opportunity come up with something even a tiny fraction as definitive as the references I've given you and you've failed multiple times in a row.

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#139

Post by thenerdhead »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #138
thenerdhead wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go read my upvoted comment on this post. It gives you insights into #1 and #2. #3 doesn't exist. That's why there's over 800(400 long covid, 400 covid) clinical trials going on right now for it.

Well, here's your first link: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... It says nothing remotely conclusive about 1), 2), or 3). It literally only says "Here's some hypotheses. We need more research." And I think I'm done wasting my time with you. I've given you ample opportunity come up with something even a tiny fraction as definitive as the references I've given you and you've failed multiple…

Good luck! Science isn't definitive by the way. Wishing you the best.

Re: Low serotonin levels might explain some Long Covid symptoms, study proposes

#140

Post by saiya-jin »

gmd63 wrote: post #122
mcpackieh wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having most of the population holed up inside is bad for long-term economic growth too. Ineffectual internet-schooling replacing normal in-person schooling for more than a short time period would be particularly devastating to long-term economic growth.

That's conjecture and based on intermediate metrics such as report cards / SAT scores

Well, mental illnesses skyrocketed. That messes up economy bad, long term in hard-to-calculate ways since people are not simply dropping dead and disappearing from economy. No they are still around, more or less successfully trying to integrate back, but requiring a lot of support resources that would be otherwise used in other cases, ramping up the medical costs, maybe even losing jobs, failed mortgages and so on.

There you have it, one long term bad economical effect. There are many others, maybe even more significant.

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