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Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

minnesotareformer.com

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Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#521

Post by Ylpertnodi »

cafard wrote: post #443
criddell wrote: post #343

Before you hire off-duty police for private security, shop around a little. In the past, some concert promoters have hired the Hells Angels for security at a considerable discount.

Because it worked out so well at Altamong?

1 in how many years? And was the guy armed?

I'm not saying they're angels, but I've never had a problem with The Angels as security: everybody knows 'don't mess', and things are good.

I've seen a few mild beatings, but considerably less that the same fone by 'regular' bouncers down town (though they're getting better....must be all the cameras).

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#522

Post by Ylpertnodi »

cvccvroomvroom wrote: post #412
NullInvictus wrote: post #310

You have to have been raised pretty sweetly to not have known this kind of racketeering was a 'thing' for a very long time. Pressure to hire cops is rampant. 'rent-a-cop' is not aimed at the fact that security companies apply aggressive mimicry to their people, but that these people are themselves often off-duty cops. Security companies are strongly "encouraged" to hire off-duty cops, and find themselves left out to…

Some types of publics works projects require hiring police for traffic safety and insurance reasons. In addition, retired police officers often can keep their uniforms and work privately in an official capacity.

Impersonating a police officer? Where...?

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#523

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

School-Cotton wrote: post #485
MrJohz wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In particular the political process should work in reverse: people voice issues, and their governing bodies come up with viable solutions. That's their job. I get what you mean but the governing bodies of the people are the people. In a democracy, we are in charge of our own institutions, at least in theory. I agree that we can't lay the full burden for solving injustice on the people affected by that injustice, an…

The US is an extremely flawed democracy. If the US were a functional democracy then maybe popular will would control the police, but it’s not.

Local police are mostly controlled by local institutions, no? Not sure the quality of US institutions at the national level is all that relevant.

Note, I'm not claiming that local police are great. I just think that the situation is probably possible to improve, if we work strategically.

BTW, in 2022 the Economist Intelligence Unit ranked US democracy above that of Belgium, Italy, Latvia, Panama, and Singapore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#524

Post by giantg2 »

rpmisms wrote: post #464
giantg2 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the reason for cops being security and being excluded from most firearms safety bills is because rhey already have a credential that was more strenuous to achieve than what the proposed bill is. That training, whether effective or not, is also seen to mitigate risks around litigation when they work security due to how our courts work (how things look can be more important). Although there are other laws that…

In many cases (especially magazine capacity laws, the stupidest of all restrictions), cops are exempt while nobody else is exempt. They're simply a caste above you.

Yeah, but I wouldn't consider stuff like mag restrictions as safety or security training. I would say that falls under the "other laws" part of my comment.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#525

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

llbeansandrice wrote: post #508
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Multiple cities have already implemented trial programs to replace police services with mental health and EMT professionals to wild success. That's chill, but it doesn't seem nearly as radical as the "abolish the police" slogan? What fraction of police calls have been replaced with mental health/EMT calls in these cities? Suppose someone is suspected of using a counterfeit $20 bill -- does Denver now call a mental h…

What a ridiculous comment. You get the tagline hilariously wrong and your example is someone committing a non violent crime that the federal government handles anyway? How many strawmen are you going to use? Do an ounce of research into the existing programs and ideas.

> What a ridiculous comment.

See HN comment guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html @dang

>You get the tagline hilariously wrong

Both taglines were in use. See NY times article "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police" https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

>your example is someone committing a non violent crime that the federal government handles anyway?

Are you saying that people suspected of counterfeiting should not be arrested? Or do you believe it's fine to arrest them, as long as the arrest is performed by federal employees rather than city employees? If so, why is that supposed to make a difference?

>Do an ounce of research into the existing programs and ideas.

If you make a claim the burden of proof is on you to support it.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#526

Post by giantg2 »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #479
giantg2 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the reason for cops being security and being excluded from most firearms safety bills is because rhey already have a credential that was more strenuous to achieve than what the proposed bill is. That training, whether effective or not, is also seen to mitigate risks around litigation when they work security due to how our courts work (how things look can be more important). Although there are other laws that…

IF they're able to obtain this "higher credential", then they should have no issue obtaining the lesser one like everyone else.

True. The point is to eliminate waste. For example, if you already got a psychological evaluation as part of being a cop, they use that one for the security license requirement in my state. At least in my state they still make you get the license, but they trim out the redundant portions.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#527

Post by andelink »

a-french-anon wrote: post #499
pkulak wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, just so I understand, bad guys all have guns. And you wish you could have one too, for protection against said bad guys. But why is a firefight preferable to a mugging?

There's that little something called "dignity". You know, trying to do something about your situation instead of rolling over and praying for the meanies to be lenient with you.

Not worth dying over

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#528

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

phatskat wrote: post #492
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Multiple cities have already implemented trial programs to replace police services with mental health and EMT professionals to wild success. That's chill, but it doesn't seem nearly as radical as the "abolish the police" slogan? What fraction of police calls have been replaced with mental health/EMT calls in these cities? Suppose someone is suspected of using a counterfeit $20 bill -- does Denver now call a mental h…

> That's chill, but it doesn't seem nearly as radical as the "abolish the police" slogan? What fraction of police calls have been replaced with mental health/EMT calls in these cities? Since we’re talking about defunding, not abolishing, what’s your point? And that fraction depends on the municipality - it varies from program to program.

>Since we’re talking about defunding, not abolishing, what’s your point?

Is there a difference? If you defund the police completely, isn't that basically the same as abolishing?

If protesters just wanted to reduce police funding, their slogan should have been "reduce police funding" instead of "defund the police". "Reduce police funding" is much less ambiguous.

This ties into my point about how energy wasn't being directed strategically. "Defund the police" is great as an edgy slogan, but that's about it.

>And that fraction depends on the municipality - it varies from program to program.

What's the rough average?

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#529

Post by Racing0461 »

rpmisms wrote: post #227
fundad wrote: post #171

A lot of times, off-duty police are the only people licensed to carry concealed weapons. Santa Clara Sheriff's department decides to approve an application or not so they prevent any competition for armed security. They solicited bribes in exchange for permits for Apple corporate security. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-26/apple-sec...

Thankfully, this is not common outside NY and California. Most other states (27 at last count) have constitutional carry, and at least in my area (small city) violent crime is extremely rare, since pretty much everyone has a gun or access to one. Our crime consists of theft and DUIs. I can't imagine what would happen if cops tried a protection racket here...

Thankfully it won't be common anywhere else due to Bruen supreme court case that made conceal carry permits shall issue if the person applying qualifies against aa rigid set of criteria.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#530

Post by phatskat »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #528
phatskat wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's chill, but it doesn't seem nearly as radical as the "abolish the police" slogan? What fraction of police calls have been replaced with mental health/EMT calls in these cities? Since we’re talking about defunding, not abolishing, what’s your point? And that fraction depends on the municipality - it varies from program to program.

>Since we’re talking about defunding, not abolishing, what’s your point? Is there a difference? If you defund the police completely, isn't that basically the same as abolishing? If protesters just wanted to reduce police funding, their slogan should have been "reduce police funding" instead of "defund the police". "Reduce police funding" is much less ambiguous. This ties into my point about how energy wasn't being di…

> Is there a difference? If you defund the police completely, isn't that basically the same as abolishing?

It’s hard to believe you’re being genuine only because, since the beginning, “defund the police” meant reallocating funds to reduce the amount going to cops. I’d understand if this were the first time you’ve heard of this, but it’s been a slogan for years and has been implemented in enough places that a cursory look into it would’ve explained it.

I’m not here to defend the language used (fwiw I’m fine with it), any movement requires nuance once you get past the flashy slogan.

> What's the rough average?

From what I recall, and this is very rough from the top of my head, one such program to use mental health advocates fueled around 1,000 calls in a year. Out of those I think they in turn requested police backup under 10 times.

This video from Some More News goes into detail about what defunding has looked like, for better and for worse, https://youtu.be/3irrROBg7Sg

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