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I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

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Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#41
post #12

I think the article sidesteps the underlying issue with programming for a company. Programming is way closer to cleaning bathrooms or working the checkout line at the grocery store than most programmers are willing to admit. It's an endless slog to solve the same problems for the same companies over and over. Your code really has no value without a business solution. A website or an app or some code is just an implem…

For a long time I've felt like software is really just a blue collar job, but instead of turning a wrench it's pushing little plastic buttons.

I like this aspect of it. It feels humble and practical. We're plumbers, but we pipe data not fluid. We don't have any science of data dynamics yet, so it's all word of mouth cargo culting. It's like being a plumber in the bronze age if plumbing was extremely valuable.

As to the ease of "and convince someone to hire you in a strategic business role". Yes, this is a job that people have, however it's extremely competitive and hard to keep. There's always someone else who can spit out MBA salad and who wants your job. I wouldn't want to be a BS artist, it's too stressful.

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#42
These frontend pity parties are so tiresome and the lack so much context on the industry, historical evolution of the web, client usage patterns, client feature capabilities, consumer demand for things, etc.

They all ring of, "my job got harder, not fair!", as they take home near top 5% salaries. Just do your jobs, stay informed, right tool for the right job, etc. Good grief.

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#43
post #31
post #22

As an old web developer myself, that surfed pretty much all the waves (No JS, just a Perl or PHP monolith, then JS with XMLHTTPRequest, jQuery, Backbone, Ember, WebPack, Angular 1 and finally React) this argument doesn't make sense. No, there isn't a new JS framework every minute. No, you don't need to learn a new thing everyday. There's really only 4 framerworks (React, Vue, Angular & Svelte, in this order), they pr…

The problem in the past was primary browser incompatibility. That was why jQuery exists and was so successfull. Different render output with different css settings was an other problem. But, thank god, since IE dies, this problems are solved for 99% of all use cases.

I got into a web development a few years ago, and I am so... what would should I use? Almost euphoric that I never had to learn to work around IE6 or Internet Explorer in general; that web browsers mostly support the same feature set now (shame on Safari for still not supporting Ogg, and on Edge for not supporting AVIF), and ECMAScript 6 being widely available is a blessing.

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#44
> Programming when I started in the early 80s was much more straightforward, as you needed to know the programming language, the operating system, and what you were asked to build — everything else you had to invent for yourself!

Is that much more straightforward? If I have an idea today, I can mostly just skip straight to the parts of that idea that interest me. I don't have to worry about writing my own database driver or windowing system or whatever — projects that could be fun in their own rights, but ultimately soul-sucking if they're just obstacles in the way of my actual vision.

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#45
What industry hasn’t changed tremendously since 2000? Look at Vulkan vs OpenGL 2. Or C++23 vs C++03. Or C# today vs C# in 2000. Or even Java today vs Java then. Or CPUs of today vs CPUs of 2000. Those gosh darned hardware engineers keep making this stuff overly complex!

I find it funny when people from other domains complain about web development changing so quickly, when literally every other domain changes at about the same pace. React has been around since 2013 now, that’s the same age as Rust. Of course if you’re not in the industry and actively following it, it will feel foreign to you if you revisit it in 10 years. That doesn’t mean your industry hasn’t changed, it just means you haven’t noticed it because you’ve been following it all this time.

And you can still use plain JS, HTML, and CSS. And a lot of things have gotten way better using vanilla tools. You don’t have to use a super complicated stack if you don’t want to.

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#46
post #17

Starting a fresh new (internal) project in our company, no specs, no borders, we can use any JS lib, framework, tool, whatever. Now we stay like a kid in front of a candy shop and don't know what to choose. Anything has pros and cons, but nothing really convinces us. It seems that all candies look great but taste like spoiled fish. We are a small team and we don't have the time to update the app with every new versio…

The dilemma of choosing the right tool for a long-term project is understandable. We are running an open source React framework called refine for building Enterprise B2B apps like admin panels, internal tools and dashboard.

It's designed to be ensuring that projects remain maintainable even as time goes by. With its headless architecture, it can be used with custom styles or any UI library and data services. Maybe it helps you somehow

You can check the examples with source code: https://refine.dev/docs/examples/

Repository: https://github.com/refinedev/refine

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#47
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how many times you have to update your app? How many time you need for maintain?

I’ve been maintaining Ember apps since 2015 and there’ve been 4 new major versions I’ve worked through, but the project’s deprecation policy and migration tooling have enabled incremental migration over time so there’s never been a need to hard fork / rewrite the app in a way that has occurred with several other (once-)popular web frameworks.

Yes, the update politics of ember is a good example for all. But it comes normally with a cost (features, speed, better solutions, whatever.... don't know currently enough about ember to form a judgment there).

I used ember too for a little own project, when it was version 1 (ONE), but i can't remember today why i not used it anymore.

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#48
post #22

As an old web developer myself, that surfed pretty much all the waves (No JS, just a Perl or PHP monolith, then JS with XMLHTTPRequest, jQuery, Backbone, Ember, WebPack, Angular 1 and finally React) this argument doesn't make sense. No, there isn't a new JS framework every minute. No, you don't need to learn a new thing everyday. There's really only 4 framerworks (React, Vue, Angular & Svelte, in this order), they pr…

Your argument is sound but it does not support your conclusion; react native is an example of “changing the base”. It is missing a significant chunk of HTML and CSS as an implementation detail. It is not an improvement, and I treat it as evidence that approach will not yield an improvement.

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#49
Developers confuse technical stack (the how) with the why (what business value is my solution delivering).

There are just more choices today. You don't query for the latest stack and work back words.

Are you building a dog house or a skyscraper? If its a dog house use vanilla js or whatever works. If your building a skyscraper then use a react stack or something that has wide developer support since now your working on a large team on a large web application and the requirements have changed.

Server side rendering for example is to solve the issue of first load but is that actually something the business must have? It also adds CPU processing to your back end and more complexity. Is the trade off worth it for your business?

The reason the business pays us money is so we learn the trade offs and make the correct technical decisions, not that we blindly grab the new hot.

Most hacker news links I see like this is a developer confusing their world (small shop, internal IT dev, large shop, enterprise development, contract work for medium size business, FANG company etc) with the whole world and think there is one solution that applies to all worlds.

Re: I Am Happy Not to Be a Web Developer Anymore

#50

html used to be a markup language for describing documents. now html is the gibberish output from some js build pipeline for wrapping 50 nested divs around some json values. why i hate web dev now: 1. what used to to take 1-3 steps now takes 10-20. trade-offs are absolutely not worth it for 90% of cases. 2. web dev has become low value, highly saturated and competitive field thanks to learn2code and low barrier.

web dev has become low value, highly saturated

Web dev has been the low value, low barrier, entry level programming job for decades. I got my first web dev job in the mid 90s and it was low value, entry level work even then, that is why they would hire a 17 year old with no experience.

Yes there is Web dev work that is very advanced, and web devs doing stuff way beyond what most can do, but most web dev jobs in the world have never been that.

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