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Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

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Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#281
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many other explanations for people that have these views that are not anti-scientific. The precautionary principle is one. Not wanting agribusiness to create patented crops is another. Recognizing that what we mean by nutrient-dense foods are more than just synthesizing more vitamin D or niacin in a plant. But sure, there is plenty of irrationality to go ‘round too. Just be rational yourself in understandin…

These principles are the exact same principles as the anti-vax people. Precautionary principle is also used by them a lot. Glyphosate has been used for a long time with massive benefits to humanity. I would guess it would compare pretty favorable in terms of percent exposed having issues to vaccines.

I’m not confident that you see the purpose of my comment in the context it was offered. My point was that “anti-science” is not the sole nor best description for people that have differing viewpoints w.r.t. modern agricultural practices.

Part of the problem more generally is that people literally lose the thread, but another part of the problem is that Hacker News doesn’t really encourage it nor design for it.

Lumping anti-vax people with people that have rational anti-big-agricultural perspectives is muddled thinking. There may be some similarities, but it is an overreach to claim these are the “exact same” principles.

I’d suggest reading some argumentation (such as policy proposals from think-tanks) by rational, pro-science people who criticize the current state of agriculture. After you do this, unless you select some obviously flawed example or fall prey to confirmation bias, you will learn they are _quite_ different than the prototypical anti-vaxxer.

The argument you are making suffers from the false equivalence fallacy. This is the kind of thing that Monsanto would do (and probably does, but I’d need to find proof). By conflating an extreme, poorly-supported viewpoint (anti-vax) with a reasonable one (rational concerns about the state of modern agribusiness), an instigator creates confusion and muddies the waters of public debate.

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#282
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes, nutrient density is worth promoting. But it seems to me that the populations of those who oppose herbicides like glyphosate, and those who oppose genetically modified crops with say extra niacin or vitamin D, overlap very heavily. We have a new mental illness, generalized antiscience disorder. Motto: "It is better that a hundred million die of famine or epidemic disease than one person die of cancer."

There are many other explanations for people that have these views that are not anti-scientific. The precautionary principle is one. Not wanting agribusiness to create patented crops is another. Recognizing that what we mean by nutrient-dense foods are more than just synthesizing more vitamin D or niacin in a plant. But sure, there is plenty of irrationality to go ‘round too. Just be rational yourself in understandin…

Applied science is all about the balance of harms.

In the paper we have a tenuous chain of correlations with no causal mechanism described.

Glyphosate has unambiguously improved crop yields and quality for decades. The causal mechanism is well understood: it kills weeds that would otherwise outcompete crop plants.

I don't care what other reasons there might be for not wanting GM crops; I was making an observation about populations.

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I need a ground cover my kids can play on. Clover is a really nice option. The tragedy is that it spreads like a weed, which means my neighbours must accept my choice or install some ridiculous barriers, harming the existing characteristic of us all using each other’s lawn as a common play area. It would be nice if clover was just kind of the de facto standard.

Creeping Thyme is a good solution. It tolerates moderate treading (i.e. a family walking on it on occassion or kids playing but not vehicles or wheeled stuff), it uses practically no water, it grows slowly so it rarely needs to be cut, and it only grows a few inches in height at most so often it doesn't need to be mowed at all, and blooms in the spring with tons of tiny little flowers spotted all over your lawn. It c…

Thank you for your post, I didn't know about Creeping Thyme. I will be planting some next spring. :)

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#284
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of, but you portray a false dichotomy. See my other lengthy comment.

That comment doesn't really say anything other than that you believe cost vs. calories is a false dichotomy, but since that's an extraordinary claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence.

> That comment doesn't really say anything other than that you believe cost vs. calories is a false dichotomy, but since that's an extraordinary claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence.

Let's start with this part:

> That comment doesn't really say anything other than

Three things. / First, this comes across as dismissive to many readers. I hope you are aware of this, and I hope you would choose different phrasing next time. / Second, it is a mischaracterization of my comment -- my comment isn't a mere statement of what I believe. There is considerable support for my claims about the _reality_ of how the world works (technological changes, economics, values, etc). / Third, writing one sentence in reply doesn't seem like a good way to make discussion more substantive as it progresses (per HN guidelines).

Now on to this part:

> but since that's an extraordinary claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence.

I get your reference to Russell's tea pot; it is unfortunate you went there; I'm not foisting some made-up thing as real. Nor am I positing some vague extraordinary belief.

Let's me flip this part of your comment on its head:

> the onus is on you to provide evidence.

My comment was lengthy and substantive. As such, it contains plenty of material to dig into. Have you dug into the area I discuss? If so, tell me what you've learned. In particular, why would there be a hard rule across all history and future states suggesting calories and cost are "at odds" with each other? When I state it this way, I think you can see your claim is the harder one to believe.

Also, why is the onus on me to write more? Why is not the onus on you to research more? Or at least write more?

I have one more thing to say about this pazt:

> but since that's an extraordinary claim

You've got it backward. Broadly, it is a much stronger claim to say "X and Y" are mutually exclusive than to say "over the long run, with technological changes, they don't have to be." That's what my comment said.

Again, to drive the point home, I'll state it a slightly different way: given many possible universes with various configurations, consider two quantities X and Y, it would be _much_ less likely for "X and Y" to be mutually exclusive. Do you understand what I'm getting at? This is a fundamental thought experiment based on probabilities.

If you can comment in detail and turn down the dismissiveness, I think a better discussion is possible.

Can you vouch that you have no ulterior motive or conflict of interest on this topic? I have no conflict of interest. My primary goal is rational, high quality, substantive discussion. My ulterior motive, so to speak, is that I believe people don't have to agree, but at the very least we can try to share and maybe even learn from each other.

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#285
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comment doesn't really say anything other than that you believe cost vs. calories is a false dichotomy, but since that's an extraordinary claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence.

> That comment doesn't really say anything other than that you believe cost vs. calories is a false dichotomy, but since that's an extraordinary claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence. Let's start with this part: > That comment doesn't really say anything other than Three things. / First, this comes across as dismissive to many readers. I hope you are aware of this, and I hope you would choose different phrasi…

I found your comment lengthy, yes, but not as substantive as you did.

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#286
post #274
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the jury ruled the way it did then?

It’s possible the jury is not scientifically literate. One of the damning emails said “you can’t say Roundup doesn’t cause cancer.” To a layman, this may be heard as “Roundup can cause cancer.” To a scientist, this may simply mean “There isn’t sufficient data to make a strong claim.” Same words, two very different interpretations. That’s why lawyers fight so hard for jury selection.

Why is Monsanto continuing to make such unscientific claims then?

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#287
post #286
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s possible the jury is not scientifically literate. One of the damning emails said “you can’t say Roundup doesn’t cause cancer.” To a layman, this may be heard as “Roundup can cause cancer.” To a scientist, this may simply mean “There isn’t sufficient data to make a strong claim.” Same words, two very different interpretations. That’s why lawyers fight so hard for jury selection.

Why is Monsanto continuing to make such unscientific claims then?

I can’t speak for them, but it’s possible they have more data outside of that specific instance. I don’t know the context of that previous email statement.

E.g., It could have been a statement based on a single study, meaning they can’t make that claim based on that single study. But there may be less uncertainty (meaning stronger claims is more reasonable) when you look at it in the totality of data.

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#288

Let's just take a pause and consider some key information: -This is an association study -If we CTLR+F "cause", "causing", "causal", etc, the only mention of causation is with extremely high levels of flouride and another mention with extremely high levels of glyphosate and zebrafish Now let's zoom way out, and consider the use of glyphosate in general. If you plot grain yields over time compared to herbicide use ove…

Your argument falls apart when you realise that grains are not in any way shape or form part of a proper human diet. All those bellies that are filled with grains may feel full and therefore won't likely cause much trouble for the elites, but they are really just slowly rotting away and dying (and generating even more income streams for big pharma, owned by the... elites).

"proper".

Meanwhile humans have been eating grains for millennia.

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#289
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds great, except it's been proven the glyphosate is not the ingredient that kills the most weeds, the "inert" ingredients when applied alone are vastly more effective. I always think it's funny when glyphosate apologists come out in droves to defend their favorite poison manufacturer. Maybe they actually drank the stuff when Bayer/Monsanto said it was safe to drink?

Where can I read more about the effectiveness of the inert interments and their dosage?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221475001...

This always takes me a lot longer to find than i hope, since "roundup inert ingredient toxicity" has, you know, hundreds or thousands of DOI attached to it.

as i've heard said - "Inert doesn't mean inactive in this context"

Re: Roundup herbicide ingredient connected to epidemic chronic kidney disease

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds great, except it's been proven the glyphosate is not the ingredient that kills the most weeds, the "inert" ingredients when applied alone are vastly more effective. I always think it's funny when glyphosate apologists come out in droves to defend their favorite poison manufacturer. Maybe they actually drank the stuff when Bayer/Monsanto said it was safe to drink?

No way. Show me the proof. If it’s the inert ingredients, why don’t they kill the GMO corn and beans, too?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221475001...
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