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Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

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Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#391

Post by Aeolun »

nilespotter wrote: post #380
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One theory I read is that Floyd and Chauvin were part of the same counterfeiting ring operating out of that club, and Chauvin murdered Floyd in order to keep him quiet. (Recall that Floyd was originally arrested for suspected use of a counterfeit $20 bill.) I think maybe part of the idea was that nightclubs are interesting to counterfeiters because they deal with so much cash. (Racism still plays a big part in the Fl…

> Racism still plays a big part in the Floyd story even if this is true What makes you think that?

Just a general tendency of all excessive violence always(ish, I can think of one exception) happening to be against colored people?

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#392

Post by tomschlick »

the_why_of_y wrote: post #364
tomschlick wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a class A misdemeanor though and they will arrest you for it. Also it becomes a felony if any theft has been committed more than 3 times: `(D) the value of the property stolen is less than $2,500 and the defendant has been previously convicted two or more times of any grade of theft;` In those other states its hard to get the police to even respond to shoplifting calls let alone make an arrest. And even if…

> It's still a class A misdemeanor though and they will arrest you for it. Just like in California. https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/Prop47FAQs.pdf

That may be the law, but prosecutors aren't prosecuting them as evidenced by the people clearing out CVS with garbage bags daily.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#393

Post by Aeolun »

et-al wrote: post #323
arthurofbabylon wrote: post #175

Already, police do this exact shakedown on cities. There are numerous incidents (anecdotal) of US police threatening city officials to reduce enforcement during election cycles, demanding increases in police force budget. Broadly, the US needs to eliminate corruption. There are many broken feedback loops right now from the grand (lobbying and campaign finance) to the minuscule (niche price fixing, bribery, police-ran…

The SF Police Department bombed the mayor's house in 1975: "In early August 1975, the SFPD went on strike over a pay dispute, violating a California law prohibiting police from striking. The city quickly obtained a court order declaring the strike illegal and enjoining the SFPD back to work. The court messenger delivering the order was met with violence and the SFPD continued to strike... The ACLU obtained a court or…

At this point, what do you do? Petition the governor for the help of the national guard?

What do you do if your enforcement apparatus does not follow the laws they’re meant to enforce? You’re kind of required to treat them as rebels…

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#394

Post by mcpackieh »

lobf wrote: post #389
mcpackieh wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's Unsafe Handgun Act is ostensibly intended to protect consumers from cheaply manufactured handguns that might malfunction or otherwise be unsafe to operate. Here is California's Attorney General explaining it: https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bont... > “California’s commonsense gun safety laws save lives, and the Unsafe Handgun Act is no exception,” said Attorney General Bonta. “Acc…

My point was that a gun doesn’t make you more safe, but the opposite. Anyone talking about buying a gun shouldn’t be discussing safety, they are unrelated concepts.

You're [deliberately?] misinterpreting the stated intent of the law. A gun that goes off when dropped is substantially less safe than a gun which doesn't. People who buy guns are in fact justified in considering such factors.

I think there's a real case to be made that the Californian law is duplicitous and is actually intended to reduce the availability of handguns in California, but that's not the point being raised here. The point is that for some reason Californian cops are exempt from from the law. That's like exempting cops from the lawn dart ban, it makes no sense.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#395

Post by tomschlick »

slipperlobster wrote: post #351
tomschlick wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are likely reserve officers. Reserve officers are generally part time and are used for additional manpower for events or recurring security so that normal patrol officers aren't short staffed. Generally the private entity pays the city, which then pays the cop. In many states private entities can't stop/redirect the flow of traffic legally so they hire off duty cops to do so.

That's my point - seems like private police with both public authority and resources. These officers are directly benefiting churches, private neighborhoods, etc. by providing public services benefitting private institutions. Seems sketchy to me.

There is another way to look at it...

It's advantageous for police to be present at large gatherings, from a traffic control point of view it prevents accidents with other members of the public that would cost the municipality even more money to respond to.

Also from a security standpoint as people physically fighting or potentially someone looking to do harm with a weapon would both reflect badly on the community and their events, and also require even more of a response.

So if the event organizer is paying for that security from off duty / reserve officers, the community is getting that extra protection essentially for free, whereas they would have had to pay other officers likely for overtime if it wasn't paid for by the event.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#396

Post by yterdy »

gotoeleven wrote: post #289
yterdy wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, for the record, this embodies what most people meant when they said, "Defund the police." Not, "Get rid of the institution of law enforcement." Instead, "Lower funding so that the remainder is forced to be put towards necessary tasks which the police are actually effective at," reducing their ability to engage in the kind of paid apathy or harassment the GGP describes, and freeing up funding for preventative soc…

If "defund the police" actually means "reform the police" then why not just say reform the police? And also why burn down police stations? I think most people who want to "defund the police" plan to live in a place where the police haven't actually been defunded. "Defund the police" is a luxury belief.

Because people have been saying, "Reform the police," for decades, and what generally happens when a "reform the police" candidate gets in office is that the police get more money for "training." So, it's not an unconsidered slogan: the problem with "reform" was that it was resulting in wealthier law enforcement that was still corrupt. Time to be more explicit about what needs to happen: do not "reform." Defund.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#397

Post by SauciestGNU »

wrboyce wrote: post #377
sacnoradhq wrote: post #276

The Target here in ATX next to downtown hired 2 ex-PMC's in full plate carriers. (APD's call backlog for nonviolent reports runs 36- to 48-hours, so it might as well be never. A private person must then either be equipped to defend themselves, cease venturing in public, or move because the police may be too busy or too unconcerned elsewhere.)

ATX? PMC? APD? I think I can maybe reverse engineer the meaning of two of those, but really you should use acronyms in full on first use. xPD is often how Americans refer to the police departments, so possibly that with “A” being a city or state or similar. ATX I can now assume is referring to the same “A” in APD, leaving “TX”, so I assume Austin, Texas and Austin Police Department? It shouldn’t take this much effort…

PMC is a private military contractor, also known as a mercenary. Think Blackwater, Wagner, that sort of company.

You're right that ATX == Austin, Texas and APD == Austin police department.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#398

Post by Aeolun »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #357
arthurofbabylon wrote: post #175

Already, police do this exact shakedown on cities. There are numerous incidents (anecdotal) of US police threatening city officials to reduce enforcement during election cycles, demanding increases in police force budget. Broadly, the US needs to eliminate corruption. There are many broken feedback loops right now from the grand (lobbying and campaign finance) to the minuscule (niche price fixing, bribery, police-ran…

>It's astonishing the degree to which the public tolerates such forms of ineptitude and subversion – it has a direct impact on everyone's bottom line. The George Floyd protests were huge. I don't think it's a simple matter of the public being too complacent. I'd say that insofar as the protests were unsuccessful, it's because their energy wasn't being directed strategically. There was so much discussion of "defunding…

> My impression is that police quality is higher in Europe than the US for instance

My impression is that that’s because in Europe it’s a skilled job that requires a degree. In the US it’s where everyone that can’t get another job goes.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#399

Post by pseg134 »

BWStearns wrote: post #313
gamblor956 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that if what you were describing was true, a federal DOJ investigation would result in a lot of people spending time in federal prison, and your friend walking away with enough money that your friend can drone all he wants from a private beach in the Bahamas while you both sip mai tais. So yes, they can retaliate against your friend. And your friend can retaliate against them and the difference is that their…

While I normatively agree with you that that’s the way it should work, that isn’t how these things go. This kind of pseudo corruption is extremely common because it’s easy to make shitty arguments that pass first inspection (oh we need the police there for public safety, think of the children, oh a bird! look over there!). They drag it out into a years long appeals process where they grind the plaintiff down and even…

Tell us the city or you are just talking nonsense on the internet. I can describe a 1000 plausible but untrue scenarios.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#400

Post by greyface- »

lobf wrote: post #389
mcpackieh wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's Unsafe Handgun Act is ostensibly intended to protect consumers from cheaply manufactured handguns that might malfunction or otherwise be unsafe to operate. Here is California's Attorney General explaining it: https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bont... > “California’s commonsense gun safety laws save lives, and the Unsafe Handgun Act is no exception,” said Attorney General Bonta. “Acc…

My point was that a gun doesn’t make you more safe, but the opposite. Anyone talking about buying a gun shouldn’t be discussing safety, they are unrelated concepts.

Harm reduction is a component of public safety.
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