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"A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

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Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#31

Post by javajosh »

lucubratory wrote: post #20
giraffe_lady wrote: post #7

This isn't the first time I've seen this allusion and I feel a little crazy each time. A major but mostly implicit plot point of that book was that only the primer backed by a connection to an invested and nurturing adult was able to accomplish the goals of the project. The two that were purely automated failed. Now like, it's fiction not prophesy and you can get into various whatifs sure. But you can't dodge the fac…

(spoilers for Diamond Age follow) Mmm, I understand what you're getting at but from what I remember of the book (it's been a few years, please forgive me) the two you're talking about that failed were relatively privileged little girls who in at least one case had separate tutors, school etc, and this played into why it failed, because they abandoned the TYLIP whenever it challenged them or made them uncomfortable. M…

The Primer doesn't work without human sacrifice. It actually needed two special people: one without anything, and one with a powerful but unfulfilled nurturing instinct. It was a pretty unlikely confluence of circumstance that made it work, and Stephenson hints at this in the book. In fact, Nell is in some ways the perfect synthesis, the maximum amount of work (force over time) that could be created between the Vickies and the Anarchists, exploiting the order/chaos tension that is explicitly discussed in the last chapters. The Vickies know they are stable and creatively dead, and that this is an existential flaw.

BTW the r'actor giving up her career, and in many ways her life seemed strange and unlikely when I read the book long ago. But now, after kids, it seems realistic, especially because it satisfied her need to nurture.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#32

Post by lucubratory »

maxerickson wrote: post #24
lucubratory wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(spoilers for Diamond Age follow) Mmm, I understand what you're getting at but from what I remember of the book (it's been a few years, please forgive me) the two you're talking about that failed were relatively privileged little girls who in at least one case had separate tutors, school etc, and this played into why it failed, because they abandoned the TYLIP whenever it challenged them or made them uncomfortable. M…

It didn't work with the mouse army, it made them into the mouse army.

You... what? Do you have like a dystopian internal headcanon for how the book ended? "And then they all tore each other to pieces shortly afterwards because they were poorly socialised, the end.", "And eventually all the young girls became addicts and wasted away doing nothing because they didn't have a strong parental figure that was human, the end.", that sort of thing?

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#33

Post by javajosh »

maxerickson wrote: post #24
lucubratory wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(spoilers for Diamond Age follow) Mmm, I understand what you're getting at but from what I remember of the book (it's been a few years, please forgive me) the two you're talking about that failed were relatively privileged little girls who in at least one case had separate tutors, school etc, and this played into why it failed, because they abandoned the TYLIP whenever it challenged them or made them uncomfortable. M…

It didn't work with the mouse army, it made them into the mouse army.

Yes, this is a disturbing part of the book. Quite fascist, arguably racist and, in the end, unnecessary for the narrative. A big price to pay for little to no payoff.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#34

Post by famouswaffles »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #21
famouswaffles wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already answered it yourself. Neal's work was fiction. He had a story to tell. a lesson/narrative to convey. His intent "got in the way" of possible reality. Purely automated Primers didn't work simply because Neal didn't want them to in his story. There are no strong reasons as to why they shouldn't work. It's just human exceptionalism at work again. The readers are not Neal. They may, as is their choice be far…

Right sure, you'll notice I'm not taking a position about its viability either way right? I'm pointing out that this conversation needs to be started by the ones creating the "primer", not us. "We made a thing from a book, the author thinks it wouldn't work but here's why we do" is a reasonable place to start. "We're reproducing a canonically failed fictional project without further consideration" is unserious at bes…

The point i'm making is that Neal's work was fiction, not a peer reviewed paper from published scientists.

You don't need to dispute anything anymore than the wright brothers needed to dispute Icarus.

Neal was trying to tell a story, not trying to be right.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#35

Post by bawolff »

cl42 wrote: post #22
geophile wrote: post #19

I loved Diamond Age. My favorite Stephenson book, by far. But the ending, the resolution of all the action, was such a letdown. Such meh. I find that this is often a problem with cyberpunk.

Do you think that's a Neal Stephenson issue? Don't get me wrong, I love his writing, but I found this to be the case with Fall too. I can see it becoming tiring if one is writing 400+ page books.

Stephenson is famous for terrible endings.

(Dont get me wrong, still love him)

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#36

Post by lucubratory »

javajosh wrote: post #31
lucubratory wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(spoilers for Diamond Age follow) Mmm, I understand what you're getting at but from what I remember of the book (it's been a few years, please forgive me) the two you're talking about that failed were relatively privileged little girls who in at least one case had separate tutors, school etc, and this played into why it failed, because they abandoned the TYLIP whenever it challenged them or made them uncomfortable. M…

The Primer doesn't work without human sacrifice. It actually needed two special people: one without anything, and one with a powerful but unfulfilled nurturing instinct. It was a pretty unlikely confluence of circumstance that made it work, and Stephenson hints at this in the book. In fact, Nell is in some ways the perfect synthesis, the maximum amount of work (force over time) that could be created between the Vicki…

Yes, Nell's character growth and arc was completely reliant on Miranda having a parental instinct and Nell being a child on a fast track to RAD before the TYLIP. The story about her character is absolutely about finding a human that loved her, through an unlikely mechanism. I just take issue with the idea that TYLIP's story is about how a human touch is needed for the concept to work, because as far as I remember that's not the case. That's Nell's story, not the Primer's.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#37

Post by IggleSniggle »

slothtrop wrote: post #23
geophile wrote: post #19

I loved Diamond Age. My favorite Stephenson book, by far. But the ending, the resolution of all the action, was such a letdown. Such meh. I find that this is often a problem with cyberpunk.

I don't know what people want or expect. I thought it was a fine ending.

I didn't even know this was a thing, but I definitely felt like Diamond Age just sort of ended mid-sentence. It's got all the elements of a great ending. I suspect it's something in the cadence, like if a symphony just ended with a V-I "BUMP DUMP!" without any sense of "everything is resolving into a tight knot." Instead, he lays out all the thread, everything is there, and there's just not really any way to wrap it up without being trite.

For an author with a similar style who does do endings, I'd say look at Heinlein. But this is all kind of besides the point, because Young Lady's Primer was basically my favorite book at the time I read it, and is still in the top of my personal charts. Sure, it doesn't have an ending or even a coda, but it just doesn't matter, because the mass of thread is beautiful without being tightened or tied off.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#38

Post by mewse-hn »

geophile wrote: post #19

I loved Diamond Age. My favorite Stephenson book, by far. But the ending, the resolution of all the action, was such a letdown. Such meh. I find that this is often a problem with cyberpunk.

I read Cryptonomicon like 20 years after it was relevant and I was engrossed in it until its terrible, awful, no-good ending

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#39

Post by lucubratory »

javajosh wrote: post #33
maxerickson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't work with the mouse army, it made them into the mouse army.

Yes, this is a disturbing part of the book. Quite fascist, arguably racist and, in the end, unnecessary for the narrative. A big price to pay for little to no payoff.

The idea that Chinese families give up their born infant babies because of gender is a racist extrapolation of sex-selective abortion, yes. It was one of the big issues I had with the book, along with some unnecessary racial slurs earlier.

I don't see the fascism angle, though. What about the Mouse Army was a fascist story? I thought their story was good, aside from how the author justified the existence of this large group of unwanted children.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#40

Post by knob »

geophile wrote: post #19

I loved Diamond Age. My favorite Stephenson book, by far. But the ending, the resolution of all the action, was such a letdown. Such meh. I find that this is often a problem with cyberpunk.

Same!! I absolutely loved a Diamond Age! I think about that world and humanity's future often!
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