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Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

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Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#161
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, Norway appears among the countries with the lowest perception of corruption in the world: #4 among 180 countries (0). It would be interesting to look if there is any correlation with other countries where income records are publicly available. 0: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-rank

All* US government salaries are public record. If you know your neighbors name and department/agency, there’s a good chance you can look them up.

Salaries are not the entire income. Corruption is usually some income in addition to a salary, but it may still be reflected in the tax record (that is, it's usually some service, board position, etc, not a suitcase full if cash).

Thus public tax records give a better transparency picture than salary records.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And job seekers. They don’t want potential employers knowing how much they made.

I'm pretty sure they know what you made if you worked at a large company anyway. For small ones they can probably guess better than the job seeker can. Excluding insider info because it goes both ways.

They can guess based off ranges. They dont have a list with your name and exact salary. In fact it’s explicitly illegal for them to ask in many states so this would circumvent that law.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m opposed to disclosure laws that would be prone to expose the income of individual people. If Alice is the only SWEPR5 at a company, that proposal publishes her salary. If Bob is clearly the best SWEPR4, Cathy the middle, and Dave just barely got promoted to that level, their salaries are also individually published. I don’t object to good faith ranges being required in job listings, but I oppose anything that wou…

Did you know there are some countries where you can look up anyone's income?

Does “other countries do it” make it right?

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#164
post #135
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in general don't like to have the hard conversations where they tell Bob that Sue is better than him and she makes more money. It's easier to just normalize transparent salaries lower. If everyone is transparent it will change over time though.

If it's real stuff, it can easily be explained: > Look, Bob. Sue has made X super valuable contributions in the last quarter, and she has done A and B, and she's the expert on that special topic. That's why she's paid 3% more than you, I hope you understand. If you want to get closer to her pay salary, look into improving yourself on XY, doing more AB work, etc. Giving concrete reasons and targets to achieve is actua…

Even with real stuff, people don't like having hard conversations. It's how toxic people stay in organizations, and poor performers are never let go.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s your salary?

40 euros/hour right now. Last job was USD $98k/year. Before that it was $65k. Before that it was $42k. I was part of a team that led a salary transparency initiative at a previous job, and it eventually led to the creation of a union there, but not until after I left for unrelated reasons. I don't get this weird paranoia about salary privacy. Opening it up helped everyone negotiate.

Sorry for replying to myself, but I wanted to share a couple more anecdotes about pay.

One, at my current job, I offered my employer a sliding scale of 25 to 50 euros an hour, depending on what they paid their other median staff and what they thought the kind of work I'd be doing is worth (primarily dev support with a bit of documentation and coding). They chose the higher end of the scale. I greatly appreciated this, because it would be enough to help me go back to school without getting another part time job.

Sliding scales are a tool I've used several times in the past, and I like them because it favors mutual respect and relationship building rather than profit maximization for either side. I'm also grateful for the other professionals who've offered this to me in the past (lawyers and mental health professionals), and wanted to do the same.

Another anecdote: I once got a freelance gig by meeting another developer in a bar. They connected me to their employer, who offered to pay me $195/hr to make some WordPress templates. I thought this was ridiculously overpriced. I immediately negotiated it DOWN, but the person who introduced me was adamant that I not go too low because it might deflate their wages too. I wanted to charge $30 to $50 for this work, which was about market rate at the time. We ended up settling for $90/hr, which was still a ridiculous amount of money for adjusting CSS pixels in WordPress. Their client went bankrupt not long after (couldn't guess why lol).

The whole experience left me feeling so disgusted I went to work for a nonprofit shortly thereafter. I earned 3x less there, worked much harder being a full stack dev and a sys admin on the side, among other things, but I had a phenomenal team and was 10x happier. That was the job that led to the salary transparency initiative, where we discovered the nonprofit was cyclically exploiting young women new to their careers after their master's degrees, burning them out, and replacing them. On average they made less than $40k, sometimes much less, to my $65k as a dev. There was no real upward mobility there, while the CEO made more than half a million dollars and wasn't even in the same state much of the time. It really revealed unfair pay gaps and helped fuel the movement towards unionization. As one of the highest paid self reported staff there, I felt it was part of my community duty to help my colleagues earn what they're worth. All in all that was probably my favorite job ever, and I would've stayed forever if I could've.

After that I went to work for a Fortune 1000 for profit company who was dabbling in renewables. My salary went up by 50%. And through a less formal salary transparency effort (as in casual lunchtime chats), I learned that I made more than people who'd been there longer and were better coders. I just happened to enter at a better time (during covid). This helped them negotiate for better pay later on.

Anyway, this is all just to share different scenarios that can happen when people are forthright about their pay.

For context, I consider myself maybe a slightly above average frontend developer in the USA. I have twenty years of on and off experience, but often more off than on, and no formal CS schooling. Tech was never really my passion (renewables is), but it helps pay the bills. I grew up in a more collectivist society, consider myself a leftist economically, and favor small egalitarian and cooperative workplaces rather than the typical American model of cutthroat capitalism that primarily pits workers against each other, and against management, in favor of unseen anonymous shareholders or owners.

I want to be paid a fair, livable wage in exchange for hard work. I want others around me to be able to do the same. I don't want to be paid an exploitative wage that's either too low or too high. Too low and I'm starving. Too high and my employer is fueling a bubble that skyrockets costs of living and destroys communities. I don't want a gilded society with the ultra rich and the servant classes. Would much prefer a community where people all made enough to get by and could float between careers that they're good at or needed (teachers, vet techs, medical assistants, nonprofits, career civil servants), etc. Salary transparency helps with all of that. The only people secrecy helps are those who are either overpaid for their work or who own labor and want it to race to the bottom. I would much rather we move towards something like government GS pay scales with clearly defined levels and requirements.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s your salary?

40 euros/hour right now. Last job was USD $98k/year. Before that it was $65k. Before that it was $42k. I was part of a team that led a salary transparency initiative at a previous job, and it eventually led to the creation of a union there, but not until after I left for unrelated reasons. I don't get this weird paranoia about salary privacy. Opening it up helped everyone negotiate.

> I don't get this weird paranoia about salary privacy. Opening it up helped everyone negotiate.

To be clear Im not asking you to dox yourself. You havent proven that you aren’t paranoid though, because we have no idea who those figures belong to.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#167
post #148
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, "checking your credit" doesn't exist, really, outside of the US. When making loan decisions, your income and loan totals/history are the main things considered, not an arbitrary score by private third parties that couldn't keep the data safe if their lives depended on it.

A credit score is determined by your loan totals/history. Every lender needs to assess credit-worthiness in some way, and they resort to the very similar schemes, with minor procedural differences based on cultural factors and historical accident.

Except that credit scores in the US include things such as evictions and credit card use, scores going down if you repay a loan in full and other bullshit, which a random bank determining your credit worthiness in France doesn't do. They ask for proof of income, check with Banque de France if you have outstanding debts or if you have failed debt payments, and that's it.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I support all efforts at increasing information transparency, I disagree that prices need to be the same. It is possible that humans are sufficiently different in the quality of the labor they are selling that a buyer might price them differently. For example, I am willing to pay a higher price for someone has 10 years of experience and is less likely to make mistakes or other desirable qualifies more than some…

The problem with your example is that you are making the assumption that someone with 10 years of experience is less likely to make mistakes in practice than the person with 0 years of experience. I've seen several examples over my career where the technically "more experienced" individual is not truly the better suited for the job. You won't know that until you hire them and, in my opinion, is a good reason for why…

> I've seen several examples over my career where the technically "more experienced" individual is not truly the better suited for the job. You won't know that until you hire them and, in my opinion, is a good reason for why you should pay someone based on the job (so long as they qualify for it).

We go through life making a lot of guesses and utilizing a lot of prior probabilities. Work history is, in my experience, one of the stronger signals available to us.

If an employer initially pays an employee less due to less track record, then finds out the employee is as good as other employees, and does not adjust the pay, then that employer is stupid and will eventually lose the good employees to places with better management. Assuming employees have access to sufficient labor pricing data and can see they can earn more elsewhere.

> But that shouldn't be a >5% difference.

What is the basis for this cutoff?

> Are you going to tell me that despite performing the exact same job and actually performing it objectively "better" that I should have made less money?

You should have made whatever the maximum you could negotiate. If this employer did not want to pay you more, you should switch employers. A good employer would have paid you much more than the others.

>This is the kind of stuff that routinely happens to women.

No, your example is bad management incentivizing bad employees and turning away good employees.

Women being paid less due to being women is illegal discrimination.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The raw numbers are different, I’m guessing (I haven’t looked). A tech worker in Norway also pays less for healthcare and housing, is healthier, spends less time in traffic and lives in a society where everyone lives safer and more equally, and has more power to walk away from a shit job than someone in the US. It’s a system that values autonomy for the most people over the power of a tiny sector of the economy to ra…

you are the one that brought up negotiating power in the context of pay transparency. In fact it is the one thing only consequence you listed in the original post. It’s unfair of you to throw back in their face that they addressed the one and only factor you listed.

It is undeniable that a tech worker in Norway negotiates for a wage with better information than the same worker in a country without income transparency.

To claim that the effects of this transparency should be measured by a simple comparison of raw average salaries between the two countries is to use a metric that includes all of the confounding variables I mentioned and more. I am simply explaining why it is a poor metric, and explaining that the value of state-mandated transparency is in personal autonomy, not in “will it magically elevate my individual salary potential in one country above what it would be in all other countries”.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I support all efforts at increasing information transparency, I disagree that prices need to be the same. It is possible that humans are sufficiently different in the quality of the labor they are selling that a buyer might price them differently. For example, I am willing to pay a higher price for someone has 10 years of experience and is less likely to make mistakes or other desirable qualifies more than some…

The problem with your example is that you are making the assumption that someone with 10 years of experience is less likely to make mistakes in practice than the person with 0 years of experience. I've seen several examples over my career where the technically "more experienced" individual is not truly the better suited for the job. You won't know that until you hire them and, in my opinion, is a good reason for why…

No, you clearly should have been making more, which is the other side of the "compensation for jobs that differ should not be mandated to be the same" argument.

Are you saying that "despite performing the exact same job and actually performing it objectively 'better' that they should have made the same money"?

I have software engineers on my team who are literally creating twice as much business [edit to add: value] per year despite being at the same level. (The actual peak to trough ratio is probably higher than that, but it's at least 2x.) Why should they be paid exactly the same or even within 5% of each other?

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