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Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#81

Post by alexfoo »

devnull3 wrote: post #76

This will impact the driving tests as well. A typical practical driving test lasts for 35-40 min. But with 20mph it will cover less distance. Interesting to see how the DVSA (the body which conducts these tests) handle this. Increasing test duration means the backlog (which is already huge) will increase. Keeping same will mean less road features will be tested.

Refresher tests every 10 years would do more to solve the current driving standards problem in the UK. But it'd be political suicide for any Government that tried to introduce it.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#82

Post by anonymous_sorry »

isoprophlex wrote: post #56
Paul_S wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should clarify, there are cameras on motorways but hardly any on local roads where the 20 speed limit is used. Also, all cameras are signposted and there are obvious lines on the road so you can see exactly where the measurement is taken.

Ah right. Yeah we had a good laugh about that, why put up so many if you make it so easy to spot them?!

Politics basically.

When they were first being installed, drivers got all whiny and said it wasn't fair. They were being tricked and local authorities were using them to raise cash rather than enforce speed limits. Cameras were placed where speeding was very common, and councils were supposedly hiding them behind foliage to catch as many people as possible. If they were really about stopping speeding, shouldn't they be visible?

Basically, drivers didn't want to have to obey the speed limit all the time (God forbid!). But they could just about put up with being forced to obey the limit where it was particularly dangerous. So to mollify the car lobby a rule was introduced that the cameras had to be highly visible.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#83

Post by alexfoo »

afiori wrote: post #77
mjg59 wrote: post #42

There are numerous references to increased congestion as a result of the reduced speed limits in built-up areas, but the UK has a fairly strong "You should always be 2 seconds behind the car in front" element to driving rules, and naively if there's two seconds between every car then the number of cars passing a particular point in a given amount of time is going to be the same regardless of how fast they're travelli…

This is asymptotically true for high speeds but false for low speeds where 2-seconds-car is comparable to the average length of a vehicle. If the speed limit was (magically) 0.001 mph then raising it to 0.002 mph would double throughput.

But 20mph is not low enough for that to be a problem.

2 seconds at 20mph is ~18m.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#84

Post by simonbarker87 »

gumballindie wrote: post #44
simonbarker87 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because drivers should be trusted to drive to the conditions. Those that speed stupidly will do so regardless of cameras (they will just slow down when they see one which actually makes things more dangerous) and those that drive to the conditions will speed when they believe it’s safe to do so and won’t speed when it’s not safe to do so, which means cameras are actually making driving less safe because they need to…

I’d say considering the state of many roads speeding wont be an issue anyway. My issue is with the government being literarily _everywhere_ to the point where it’s creepy. It really only shows that either the british society is in fact quite “uncivilised” and requires massive amounts of policing in order to “behave” or that the frog is getting boiled for something bigger.

Agree, the “see it, say it, sort it” tannoy announcements on the trains drives me mad - we are getting treated like children. I don’t buy in to “government control” conspiracies but clipboard warriors overly bothered about rules and everyone behaving just like them seem to have been able to push through a lot of this stuff.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#85

Post by simonbarker87 »

beardyw wrote: post #65
simonbarker87 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because drivers should be trusted to drive to the conditions. Those that speed stupidly will do so regardless of cameras (they will just slow down when they see one which actually makes things more dangerous) and those that drive to the conditions will speed when they believe it’s safe to do so and won’t speed when it’s not safe to do so, which means cameras are actually making driving less safe because they need to…

Well they don't put cameras where you can't exceed 60. That would be stupid. Where they do put them, people get caught at over 60. So I still don't see the problem.

To be clear, you totally could exceed 60 on these roads, you would just be insane to do so.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#86

Post by Paul_S »

ovi256 wrote: post #70
yellow_lead wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate how this is being destroyed? Not sure if you mean Brexit, other law changes, or this one in particular.

Policing by consensus. People respected the rules because they agreed with the rules and trusted the rulemakers. Now the trust in rulemakers is gone and some people disagree with some rules. I wonder what the impact of this policing by consensus was. Did the UK spend a lower percentage of GDP on policing than peer nations ? I don't think they have lower crime numbers. Surely not in London.

That's exactly what I meant. If people agree to the rules you don't need to waste resources policing them.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#87

Post by simonbarker87 »

isoprophlex wrote: post #52
simonbarker87 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because drivers should be trusted to drive to the conditions. Those that speed stupidly will do so regardless of cameras (they will just slow down when they see one which actually makes things more dangerous) and those that drive to the conditions will speed when they believe it’s safe to do so and won’t speed when it’s not safe to do so, which means cameras are actually making driving less safe because they need to…

I agree, for roads clearly separated from pedestrians and cyclists. You can barely see what's around the next corner on those fenced in country roads, you'd be insane to drive 60 mph even tho that's the speed limit. In residential areas however I'm totally fine with low limits + many cameras. A collision with a pedestrian at 20 mph might be survivable, at 40 it's a death sentence. And in residential areas, on well-as…

I agree that 40 is too fast for urban settings, but 30 isn’t and that’s the most common speed limit and what would be moved to 20.

I drove at 20 the other day for a bit assuming that this Wales rubbish would make it to England and it’s hard to stick to due to the drive train config (I drive a very boring Volvo as well), 25 is much easier.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#88

Post by alexfoo »

anonymous_sorry wrote: post #31
thinkingemote wrote: post #15

In an nearby area where they have introduced 20mph for many streets the police have said that they have very low resources to properly enforce the limit and instead will be enforced "voluntarily". The council actually wanted more streets as 20mph but the police said that they really couldn't support the larger area effectively blocking it!

But every road has a speed limit. Does changing the limit change the enforcement effort?

A lot of 20mph limits as enforced simply by some motorists driving at So, yes, simply sticking up a sign and not actively enforcing it (Police, speed cameras) can have a pretty good effect.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#89

Post by bogle »

phero_cnstrcts wrote: post #64
haspok wrote: post #22

I find it amusing how they did not interview one single person who thought he or she might just choose a different way of transportation, instead of driving a car, unless absolutely necessary. I used to commute in the north between two mid-sized cities, and any time I checked taking the car instead of the combined bike+rail travel would not have been faster, only much more inconvenient and more expensive (parking cos…

>still way too cheap Said no sane person ever.

Why the UK Government has frozen fuel duty. Again. https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/news/why-the-uk-gove...

The ruling Conservative Party are buying votes at the cost of the environment. It harms tax revenue, too, which should be put towards improving travel options.

Re: Wales' 20mph speed limit: How has the first month gone?

#90

Post by bananapear »

alexfoo wrote: post #58
Paul_S wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should clarify, there are cameras on motorways but hardly any on local roads where the 20 speed limit is used. Also, all cameras are signposted and there are obvious lines on the road so you can see exactly where the measurement is taken.

There are three speed cameras in 20mph limits near me in my area of London. Whenever I'm near them I see someone flashed by them about once every 5 minutes (one is opposite a bus stop that I often wait at). It's surprising just how many people will continue to speed past these very visible cameras.

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