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HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

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Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#61
post #16

“HashiCorp’s technology was critical to the modern cloud” I would challenge that. Their tech gained a stronghold because it had a liberal OSS license and thus a community formed around it. Their technology itself isn’t critical, it was just popular to such a degree that it was almost standard in a lot of settings. Now they’ve upset that community we see they’re not as critical as they think they are - OpenTofu exists…

> If I was starting a software business today I simply wouldn’t open source on day one. I might lose some of the crowd that only uses OSS but I’d just have to focus on others for a while. Or you could use GPL3 (for client-side) or AGPL (if it could be hosted). OSS crowd will be still happy and "leechers" are prevented.

I worked in way too many places that wouldn’t let me use AGPL and it was then harder to procure vs something totally closed source.

Don’t ask me how or why but then I went to work at a vendor and encountered similar experiences

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#62
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's this same vitriol directed at Amazon, Google, et al.? They've built huge cloud platforms on the backs of open source. These are highly profitable machines that siphon up so much free labor and give very little back. Instead we attack HashiCorp, whose entire product is going to fall into disuse over a fork of the very thing they built. Why is that? I'm angry at AWS - it's literally just open source software ru…

HashiCorp is seeking a monopoly on hosting Terraform, which is bad for me as a user if I think another vendor might do a better job (or even just to keep prices in line with costs). It would have been better if they had been paid for writing Terraform and now hosting services could compete on their own merits.

> HashiCorp is seeking a monopoly on hosting Terraform

HashiCorp is trying to see an upside to the thing they've put a lot of effort into building. They're seeing lots of other companies -- including Amazon -- use it to enhance their own bottom lines off of HashiCorp's hard work.

These companies pose an existential threat to HashiCorp, and the HashiCorp stakeholders are getting nothing in return.

Free repackaging lowers the fitness of HashiCorp as an organization and cuts short HashiCorp's growth potential, resulting in lower revenue, less hiring, and more competition -- all of which ultimately inhibits HashiCorp's growth into a well-rounded company with a rich set of offerings. They're effectively being knee-capped and fenced in by low-margin competition.

Meanwhile you're eating for free.

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#63

This is a dumb title for a good article. In that it makes is seem like he is talking about OSS software. The software that powers the entire Silicon Valley tech empire. Linux and OSS power Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc, right down to your 1-2 person startups. He's not talking about that -- he's talking about open source software sales model used by companies like Redhat and HashiCorp. The threat here is that you're d…

HashiCorp and its CEO are too focused on their competitors while they really should be focusing on their customers

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#64
post #2

Note: the title is missing "unless the open source model evolves".

I submitted this, and opted to elide that part of the title, both due to wordiness and also because it doesn't change the headline: the "evolution of model" that McJannet is advocating is not in fact open source. He is, therefore, predicting an "OSS-free Silicon Valley" -- one way or the other. (I also think he's entirely wrong.)

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#65
I think what a lot of people are missing is to do the backwards induction from where companies predict how things will go back to the present where they develop open source software and release it.

Previously, the belief was that you'd open source the software and then sell support since you knew the code the best (even though it's open source, the knowledge in the brains of the developers working on the code was not open, and you could extract value by leveraging that knowledge). That's the RedHat model and... well it's pretty dead. No startups today are predicting that will be the profitability scenario for their company since the paragon of the model, RedHat, had to sell themselves to IBM.

The next profitability model was open core, where you open source the main thing and sell integrated services and closed source enterprise features, etc. This model was more promising but it is squashed by companies like Amazon, or even other startups who can wait to see which open source products win, and then compete on those services etc. The main difficulty here is that open core isn't "commoditizing your complement" it's commoditizing your main thing and then being left with nice-to-haves as your business.

So a startup today has to look at this future and decide "open or closed source?" and if they look down the open source future and see no profitability, they just... never take that path. People are looking at companies switching their licenses today and saying it's greed, etc, but the difference is that those open source products exist at all due to a company building it. In the future, without an answer to open source profitability, there just won't be any companies producing open source software.

Open source software might still come from:

* bigcos with extra cash around commoditizing their complements: open sourcing non-core pieces for the purposes of competitive advantage. (e.g. kubernetes and bazel)

* hobbyists building things they personally enjoy working on. This usually precludes solving gnarly inelegant problem spaces like terraform (keep up with all cloud APIs in near real time... at night after your real job!). It also tends to mean there's no particular plan for maintenance or support. I love hobbyist open source, it's wonderful, but there are definitely things it consistently doesn't do well.

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#66
post #30

This is a dumb title for a good article. In that it makes is seem like he is talking about OSS software. The software that powers the entire Silicon Valley tech empire. Linux and OSS power Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc, right down to your 1-2 person startups. He's not talking about that -- he's talking about open source software sales model used by companies like Redhat and HashiCorp. The threat here is that you're d…

> Then you have XYZ startup appears, they takes your open-source code, repackages it and then sells enterprise features, professional services, and support. That is a feature of the model, not a bug. Exactly that happened to Git. Good. Happening at last in social media with Mastodon The point is to have a lot of smaller companies rather than one or two huge companies playing "lock in"

> Exactly that happened to Git.

what a bizarre claim. Git was written by Linus because Larry McVoy kicked him off BitKeeper, and then the biggest Git ecosystem software spinoffs (GitHub) are entirely closed source.

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They raised and went public in a different era. Public Investors have significantly higher expectations for rates of return, and plenty of OSS-core companies raised significantly larger late stage rounds. That said, try IPOing a tech company with $15-70M a year in revenue in the 2020s. Those numbers were the norms in the late 90s/early 2000s, which allowed companies like RedHat or Sun Microsystems to IPO, while still…

> in a different era. It may seem like the early 2000s were a different era, but it's better to think of it as an earlier stage in this era. These companies built on OSS with varying degrees of giving back, so it seemed like they were all about the sharing economy. A decade later they'd built out their business (RIP Sun, though) and had solid positions in the market, not easily displaced. A decade later and the clawb…

> A decade later they'd built out their business (RIP Sun, though) and had solid positions in the market, not easily displaced

They were given the ability to build out their business.

Companies like Hashicorp and other OSS core companies have revenue numbers roughly comparable to what would give you an IPO even 10 years ago. Mind you, Hashicorp is public, and their YoY revenue is around $520M a year.

The issue was they listed to minimize their IPO listing "Pop" (probably due to pressure from late stage investors IME), and this doomed them as a $70-80 per share value is difficult for any company to hold. Companies like Salesforce ($3.95) and RedHat ($14) listed at much lower share prices.

Lots of companies IPOed/SPACed during that time period as a number of the funds matured and needed to return profits to LPs. I know Social Capital had a similar thing happen due to Chamath's acrimonious divorce leading LPs to call their funds earlier. That's probably the most prominent example, but there were plenty of other funds that had a drawdown during a similar period.

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#68
env0 CEO here. From the article:

He added that it offered to carry on working with the four main companies affected by the switch, saying “You just have to bear some of the r&d costs. And they were like, ‘No, no, we're gonna do something else’. Which is fine.”

I want to clarify that nobody ever approached us (env0) from Hashicorp.

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#69
post #16

“HashiCorp’s technology was critical to the modern cloud” I would challenge that. Their tech gained a stronghold because it had a liberal OSS license and thus a community formed around it. Their technology itself isn’t critical, it was just popular to such a degree that it was almost standard in a lot of settings. Now they’ve upset that community we see they’re not as critical as they think they are - OpenTofu exists…

The fact that a community-run fork is causing them to sweat so much shows that HashiCorp themselves may not be as essential to the Terraform ecosystem as they thought.

Re: HashiCorp CEO Predicts OSS-Free Silicon Valley

#70
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I was starting a software business today I simply wouldn’t open source on day one. I might lose some of the crowd that only uses OSS but I’d just have to focus on others for a while. Or you could use GPL3 (for client-side) or AGPL (if it could be hosted). OSS crowd will be still happy and "leechers" are prevented.

I worked in way too many places that wouldn’t let me use AGPL and it was then harder to procure vs something totally closed source. Don’t ask me how or why but then I went to work at a vendor and encountered similar experiences

It usually comes with an option: those that don't like AGPL can still get a non-AGPL licensed version for a fee. You would be still better off than with totally closed source.
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