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Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

lukashermann.dev

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Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you look to avoid paying tax though? I can understand doing so in a country that is squandering money - like the UK, where you pay through the nose and get very little in return, but Germany? I heard public services and basically what you get for your tax is pretty decent.

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

There are states with much lower taxes that also pay for education. Why should Germans pay so much?

There are people who didn't go to university doing business too.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#33

This is such a european startup story - where most energy is spent setting up a company and navigating bureaucracy rather than building a product. If anyone wonders why europe has such a lower number of startups this is why. And it’s not the government at fault. It’s the culture. Like seriously just pay someone 200€ to do this on your behalf and focus on stuff that matters not the “legal gray area” of earning pocket…

pay who 200€? in Germany? just the notary fee is in the hundreds and you probably need a lawyer and an accountant for a UG/GmbH. I’m trying this now with a new venture. Already have an accountant. But they’re slow and nonresponsive. I tried shopping around and literally got turned down left and right with these types of messages: “Unfortunately we do not have the capacity to take on any new clients at the moment.”

Lawyers can’t seem to advise on tax issues or how to best structure your business(es). Tax advisors cannot seem to actually create a company. It’s a total mess. At least for anything nontrivial and for me as a non-German.

I thought maybe Estonia or someplace else in Europe, but the tax rules are such that if your center of operation is in Germany, you still need to do taxes here.

If anyone has tips or good contacts (accountants lawyers etc), I’d love to hear.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#34
As a bootstrapper of a German-based SaaS company myself, I've gotta say that I quite enjoyed the article. I would like to weigh in on specific parts of the article with some quick, if not exhaustive, comments:

> Bootstrapping is tough, especially in the beginning. This couldn't be more true. Once the operation begins, that's when things start to get real. Cash starts to burn once the product moves from your laptop to its first production environment, and that usually happens well before the commercial go-live. Unless you have significant savings parachute should things go really badly, you are faced with the very real possibility of having to fully bail out once personal finances get to a critical point (e.g. not being able to cover rent, bills, food). Much bravery and faith is required to get through this very stressful phase. Expect to spend the early days and months praying for break-even.

> One of the benefits of running a SaaS business is the low operational costs. For Stagetimer, I spent barely €20 per month on tech infrastructure.

This really depends on what it is you're doing. If your service is computationally intensive and works on larger chunks of data as part of its offering, then it gets way more expensive. Bandwidth costs, compute costs (# of VMs/Cores/Threads, RAM, storage) all become pretty expensive. Costs will get more difficult to estimate as time progresses - for a few reasons:

1. Growth is hard to estimate, always, but especially when nCustomers == 0.

2. With increased load comes increased utilization of the infrastructure, which necessitates the need to know how much extra capacity should be available and what usage peaks look like. During the phase of winning your first customers and then some, you don't want to be in a position of getting frequent complaints about degraded performance, or worse, outages. Those things can kill you right at the start. Additionally, you probably shouldn't spend too much time solving scaling issues from the get-go before you have any reasonable traction. Finding a reasonable balance is tricky.

3. With scaling and spare capacity taken care of, you'll then start to see what your gross revenue really looks like and will likely start exploring ways to reduce your operational costs and squeeze out more margin by reducing the TCO, and ideally calculating the COGS for your product to get insights into how to reduce your fixed costs.

> Pricing is a huge challenge in the SaaS space

Oh God, yes. Good luck with this, especially if there's no precedent for the business type. If you're competing in a pre-existing product category then you can just spreadsheet the other offerings out there. If not, then you're basically guessing. In my opinion, you should always start with prices higher than what you think people will pay for. It's easy to go from higher to lower, but not vice-versa, especially at the very early stages. If there is an interest in the product and the pricing is on the high side, you'll likely get a lot of feedback. Be prepared to adjust your pricing and find a harmonious price point, but never rush this process. Don't forget, you can also negotiate prices directly with people who reach out to you.

> Legal, taxes bureaucracy, company founding

All of it is a pain. I'm quite sure that it's much easier in 2023 to explain what a SaaS is, to notars and tax accountants, than it was in 2013. Most tax accountancy firms will want to know stuff about your business before they agree to enrol you. In 2013 it was way more difficult to explain "customers send signals to our computers over the Internet and we send back signals containing the information their signals were asking for, and yes people will pay for this and mostly by credit card". Fun stuff.

(There's a lot more I want to type but I have to step away for now)

EDIT: Formatting

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#35
post #11

Why a GmbH in Germany? Sorry, that was not a good idea and will costs you money and nerves to fix that. Now you are locked into Germany even if your business can be operated from everywhere around the globe. If you move the GmbH out of Germany you have to pay GmbH fair value ; fair value according to German Tax Authority! Do a Holding GmbH + Operative GmbH to accumulate wealth tax efficiently. You could have your com…

I don't know how to judge this comment? Is this essentially recommending dodging the taxes via a more complicated holding situation and the "do vacation in Germany", so essentially operate from germany? If so, I think this is highly unethical. Corporations have to pair their share to keep the society functioning...not just "normal" peoples with their salaries while all the profits get sucked into a foreign black hole…

Nothing against paying some taxes. But keep in mind that Germany is among the top ranking highest tax paying countries. And there are better "society functioning" countries than Germany, at much lower tax rate. Not every tax rate is fair. Some tax rates are unethically high b/c due to a overloaded govt. apparatus.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#36

This is such a european startup story - where most energy is spent setting up a company and navigating bureaucracy rather than building a product. If anyone wonders why europe has such a lower number of startups this is why. And it’s not the government at fault. It’s the culture. Like seriously just pay someone 200€ to do this on your behalf and focus on stuff that matters not the “legal gray area” of earning pocket…

In the UK you pay £12 online, fill in an address and it's done. So that's not true. It completely depends on the European country. And given the Germany is the economic powerhouse of the EU, their bureaucracy doesn't seem to be hurting them much.

German here. Germany's economy is mainly based on

- 100y old inventions (automobile, chemistry).

- Then some more diverse set of so-called "hidden champions" (German name for world-leaders of some very special physical engineering products) which will sooner or later be fed to some US or Chinese companies.

- Some heavy industry which is currently leaving the country because of shenanigans in energy politics over the last two decades.

- Some of the dinosaurs the sibling comment already stated

- and finally lots of service businesses driven by MBAs and Legals who profit from the jungle German tax and law system is. They have zero interest in change and have been squeezing out the middle class in last 2-3 decades.

Germany is in recession right now as the only of the G7 countries. This is because the cheap Russian energy cannot cover the structural problems anymore but business, taxation and bureaucratic mentality is putting the whole country down. Can't recommend anymore.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the days when you could just set up a company in some random country and run it from Germany are pretty over, the Finanzamt will just treat it as a domestic entity unless you can prove you've gone full nomad.

You don't need to go full nomad, just spend half a year + 1 day out of Germany.

You have to cleanly separate personal and company taxes. If the managing director makes significant decisions (as in forming the will, not as in executing) while on German soil, the company is taxed like any other German capital company.

Btw. despite the myth, just being 182 days outside of Germany doesn't get you out of German personal taxes. It just stops taxation of foreign-derived income.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

> F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc. People can move in from other countries, you know.

and they would also benefit from the social net the state provides plus everything else taxes pay for, so your point is what exactly?

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#39
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the days when you could just set up a company in some random country and run it from Germany are pretty over, the Finanzamt will just treat it as a domestic entity unless you can prove you've gone full nomad.

You don't need to go full nomad, just spend half a year + 1 day out of Germany.

the center of life criterion is much more encompassing than that if you get a serious audit

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you look to avoid paying tax though? I can understand doing so in a country that is squandering money - like the UK, where you pay through the nose and get very little in return, but Germany? I heard public services and basically what you get for your tax is pretty decent.

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

when you start working you will understand
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