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Analogue 3D

analogue.co

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Re: Analogue 3D

#21

Post by elipsitz »

gcr wrote: post #11
elipsitz wrote: post #7

Analogue makes some really cool, well-engineered products. But saying there’s “No Emulation” because it uses an FPGA is blatantly false. If it’s imitating original hardware, without being the original hardware, it’s an emulator.

When I hear "emulation," I think "in software, a la Turing-completeness." It's like saying a Volkswagen "emulates" a Model-T. It drives on the same roads, but the internal implementation is quite different.

Whether it’s a program running on a CPU that interprets software written for the original device, or a configuration of look-up-tables in an FPGA that can interpret software written for the original device, it’s still a system that intends to exactly reproduce the behavior of another one. I’d call that emulation.

Re: Analogue 3D

#22

Post by nacs »

erinnh wrote: post #19
MenhirMike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still waiting for any news at all about the "Available in 2023" Duo that I pre-ordered Day 1, but yeah: They did always deliver in the past. Eventually. And it's generally been worth it, except that if you were hoping that "Future Analogue Product" support on the DAC means "Pocket Dock".

They mentioned it again today. Duo will ship in 2023. Pocket Adapters are "on target to ship by end of 2023" Analogue OS 2.0 will release by end of 2023. With display mode support for openFPGA cores.

So 3 backordered products launching in the next 2 months?

They're going to have a busy Christmas holiday..

Re: Analogue 3D

#23

Post by MenhirMike »

elipsitz wrote: post #7

Analogue makes some really cool, well-engineered products. But saying there’s “No Emulation” because it uses an FPGA is blatantly false. If it’s imitating original hardware, without being the original hardware, it’s an emulator.

It's a discussion that's been going on for a long time. Is it "Emulation" or is it more like "Simulation" or even "Recreation", and are those things actually different from each other or is it just wordsmithing.

In the end, it's a third party that's not the original hardware manufacturer trying to re-implement a hardware platform, so there's always room for errors and inaccuracies, so it's fair to say it goes into the realm of emulation. On the other hand, it has a lot more potential because you can configure an FPGA to behave like real hardware - and don't have to worry about an underlying OS and device drivers. (And even then, real hardware wasn't always the same, as anyone that ever tried to look into MegaDrive/Genesis sound emulation can attest: There's like six different versions of the MD/Gen that all sound differently. Or the PC Engine CoreGrafx I with it's HuC6280A being different than the regular HuC6280 in all other systems).

FPGAs is the closest you'll get to a modern revision of a classical console without having to get an old one, probably RGB mod it, probably recap it, and putting an upscaler behind it. (And arguably, at that point, you're no longer playing the authentic experience anyway since a CRT with all it's color-bleeding glory is the way it's meant to be played)

Re: Analogue 3D

#24

Post by goosedragons »

jrm4 wrote: post #4

This is one of those products where my first reaction is "Well, that's silly who would pay for that" And then I remember how wrong I was about e.g. the candy-colored iMacs. Let's see where this goes.

Enough people to make it worthwhile. It won't be a massive mass market product like the NES Classic but like their past releases they will sell what they make. N64 has pretty garbage video out sans mods with IIRC no RGB support on any model. Having a nice 4K N64 that works out of the box will definitely appeal to some retro collectors.

Re: Analogue 3D

#25

Post by sbarre »

elipsitz wrote: post #7

Analogue makes some really cool, well-engineered products. But saying there’s “No Emulation” because it uses an FPGA is blatantly false. If it’s imitating original hardware, without being the original hardware, it’s an emulator.

Words can have multiple meanings?

In the market space they play in, and the audience to whom they speak, "emulation" is well known to mean software emulation targeted at dumped ROMs.

And since there are lots of hardware devices out there that are generic compute devices with pre-installed software emulators that claim to play the same games (via said ROMs), they make the point to clarify that this isn't one of those products.

Re: Analogue 3D

#26

Post by elipsitz »

skyyler wrote: post #18
elipsitz wrote: post #7

Analogue makes some really cool, well-engineered products. But saying there’s “No Emulation” because it uses an FPGA is blatantly false. If it’s imitating original hardware, without being the original hardware, it’s an emulator.

There's a pretty big difference between a 1-to-1 simulation of the real hardware and a software emulator. Look into what it took to get cycle-accurate emulation of the SNES with higan...

But it isn’t a 1-to-1 simulation of the real hardware. Unless they have the original designs for the chips used in the N64, they’re still implementing something with likely very different internals on an FPGA.

You can get the same accuracy in a software emulator. If they want to claim it’s better because it’s more performant, or because it can use original cartridges, or it can produce better analog video output, that’s fine. But that’s not what they’re saying— they’re saying it isn’t emulation at all.

Re: Analogue 3D

#27

Post by mattl »

elipsitz wrote: post #16
mattl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not emulation in software, it's hardware reproduction in software so the distinction matters for video games.

Sure, it’s not a software emulator, but it’s still an emulator. And Analogue’s use of “No Emulation” is dishonest: it implies that it’s somehow inherently better than a software emulator, which it isn’t. E.g. you can have an inaccurate FPGA-based emulator, and a highly accurate software-based emulator.

Where's the emulation? If you program an FPGA to reproduce a system, there's no emulation... you might have bugs but there are bugs in hardware too.

Re: Analogue 3D

#28

Post by MenhirMike »

nacs wrote: post #22
erinnh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They mentioned it again today. Duo will ship in 2023. Pocket Adapters are "on target to ship by end of 2023" Analogue OS 2.0 will release by end of 2023. With display mode support for openFPGA cores.

So 3 backordered products launching in the next 2 months? They're going to have a busy Christmas holiday..

From what I did see, people did receive their pockets and some of the accessories, so yeah, it looks like they are actually working through the backlog. That said, I'll believe the Duo when it arrives at my doorstep :D

Re: Analogue 3D

#29

Post by donatj »

jrm4 wrote: post #4

This is one of those products where my first reaction is "Well, that's silly who would pay for that" And then I remember how wrong I was about e.g. the candy-colored iMacs. Let's see where this goes.

What's funny is my immediate reaction is "Shut up and take my money!"

The people who have nostalgia for this sort of stuff happen to also be the people the age where nostalgia takes hold and disposable income becomes available.

Re: Analogue 3D

#30

Post by elipsitz »

sbarre wrote: post #25
elipsitz wrote: post #7

Analogue makes some really cool, well-engineered products. But saying there’s “No Emulation” because it uses an FPGA is blatantly false. If it’s imitating original hardware, without being the original hardware, it’s an emulator.

Words can have multiple meanings? In the market space they play in, and the audience to whom they speak, "emulation" is well known to mean software emulation targeted at dumped ROMs. And since there are lots of hardware devices out there that are generic compute devices with pre-installed software emulators that claim to play the same games (via said ROMs), they make the point to clarify that this isn't one of those…

The issue I have is that they’re implying it’s inherently better than software emulation, perhaps because it more accurately reproduces the behavior. But an FPGA emulator isn’t necessarily any more accurate.

I think it’s dishonest marketing, and they know it. The low contrast, fine print at the bottom doesn’t make the same claim:

> 3. Analogue 3D is not designed using software emulation. It is designed using a specialty hardware chip called an FPGA, which operates on a transistor level implementation of its functionality.

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