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Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

theguardian.com

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Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#241

Post by Tade0 »

CalRobert wrote: post #230
Tade0 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but it's also more than in relatively car-oriented Germany, not to mention definitely car-oriented (in European terms) Ireland. My point being: it's not the mode of personal transport, but approach to safety that ultimately makes the numbers. The Dutch are unwilling to mandate bike helmets, saying that it would reduce cycling. This begs the question: what's more important really?

As best I can tell, it isn't clear what the impact on cycling is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmets_in_Australia I'm ambivalent. I personally think a helmet saved my life when I was riding in Sacramento but I ride much more slowly here in NL (about 8-11 mph). I wouldn't mind if helmets were normalized but (as noted at wikipedia) that makes using OV-fiets, etc. more of a hassle. Certainly a helmet is a goo…

I never liked helmets and refused to wear them even as a young adult, but now that I have a small child I got myself the dorkiest, safest high-vis bike helmet I could find.

The stories I hear how helmets save lives typically don't involve other vehicles - my personal is actually from skiing, as I borrowed a helmet from a friend who had to end his vacation early and I think that saved me from a severe concussion, because a few hours later I fell face-first on compacted snow and couldn't get myself together for a few minutes afterwards.

> that makes using OV-fiets, etc. more of a hassle.

Perhaps, but are we about road safety or are we about popularizing cycling, traffic deaths be damned?

My manager uses a rental bike to commute and he always has his helmet on when phoning in during a break in his commute because he has three kids and no intention of orphaning them.

I see it as a question of priorities. I'm against car-oriented infrastructure because I believe some people(20% at least) really shouldn't drive and I care about safety. Bicycles don't seem to deliver on that front either - at least until we figure out what's causing this increase and why the heck aren't all these seniors using public transport?

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#242

Post by triceratops »

DrThunder wrote: post #220
triceratops wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to do so if you also buy your own exclusive air supply that never touches our air. And never drive on public roads that everyone else pays for and uses - because then you are contributing to road wear and higher accident rates. Otherwise the rest of us retain the right to put limits on your "freedom".

[flagged]

Reductio ad absurdum etc. But continue feeling smug if that suits you.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#243

Post by Fatnino »

CalRobert wrote: post #20

It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course). I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fanta…

I live in the Bay Area. If I had to confine myself to public transit my quality of life would be severely degraded.

There is very little outdoor/nature activity accessible to me by public transit.

But if I extend my leash to a 2-3 hour car ride it opens up countless forests, beaches, mountains, ghost towns, lakes, caves, marshes, waterfalls, ...

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#244

Post by cmrdporcupine »

southernplaces7 wrote: post #233
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complaining about downvotes on a public forum is also a "shitty habit." As is basically calling people names in said forum.

And why should it be? The silly HN "taboo" about mentioning downvotes is just that, silly. It's a tacit means of sidelining someone who might often have valid reasons for questioning why certain hivemind tendencies simply downvote valid points, with no reasoned counterargument, apparently because they emotionally dislike what they're reading. It's very common on this site and absolutely worth calling out in many case…

Looks like you're pretty new here.

You might like Reddit better.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#245

Post by paganel »

hef19898 wrote: post #65
robertlagrant wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem On what basis?

That all the public schools I know in Europe, either directly or indirectly, are pretty much of the same quality (differences for specific teachers not withstanding). Sending kids to a different school comes down to personal preferences, ranging from available languages to a school being along the commute of a parent or simple preference of tue kid in question. Selecting where to life based on school quality is simpl…

> That all the public schools I know in Europe, either directly or indirectly, are pretty much of the same quality

That is definitely not the case here in Romania.

One of my personal projects involves mapping the results of Romania's National Exams for pupils at the end of 8th grade (in here [1] are the results for Bucharest), and as you can see on the linked map/link there are definetly better (colored with green, with average school grade higher than the average for Bucharest) and worse schools (colored with red). Going back to 2015, let's say (meaning at this link [2]), one can see that the schools colored green have remained pretty much the same, and the same goes for the red/worst schools.

I have a close friend who's a math highschool teacher in the French Education system and he confirmed to me that a similar situation takes place in France (the Paris area, to be more exact).

[1] https://mihaitc.github.io/scoli/bucuresti/

[2] https://mihaitc.github.io/scoli/2015/bucuresti/

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#246

Post by DrThunder »

triceratops wrote: post #242
DrThunder wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Reductio ad absurdum etc. But continue feeling smug if that suits you.

Ah yes because sounding like you're casting a Harry Potter spell is a good rebuttal. You could have just admitted you got caught swimming in cognitive dissonance.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#247

Post by triceratops »

DrThunder wrote: post #246
triceratops wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reductio ad absurdum etc. But continue feeling smug if that suits you.

Ah yes because sounding like you're casting a Harry Potter spell is a good rebuttal. You could have just admitted you got caught swimming in cognitive dissonance.

Because it's not cognitive dissonance.

You seem to think "If you're so worried about climate change why do you participate in _____" is some kind of gotcha winning card to play in any climate-related argument. Taken to its logical, absurd conclusion, anyone that doesn't kill themselves immediately is equally responsible for climate change as someone emitting millions of tons of carbon a year.

You lack wisdom. You don't debate in good faith.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#248

Post by InitialLastName »

Tade0 wrote: post #241
CalRobert wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As best I can tell, it isn't clear what the impact on cycling is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmets_in_Australia I'm ambivalent. I personally think a helmet saved my life when I was riding in Sacramento but I ride much more slowly here in NL (about 8-11 mph). I wouldn't mind if helmets were normalized but (as noted at wikipedia) that makes using OV-fiets, etc. more of a hassle. Certainly a helmet is a goo…

I never liked helmets and refused to wear them even as a young adult, but now that I have a small child I got myself the dorkiest, safest high-vis bike helmet I could find. The stories I hear how helmets save lives typically don't involve other vehicles - my personal is actually from skiing, as I borrowed a helmet from a friend who had to end his vacation early and I think that saved me from a severe concussion, beca…

It's worth noting that risk compensation [0], where certain safety measures lead to people taking more serious risks, is a thing. In your skiing accident, is it possible you would have made different decisions in the lead-up that decreased your risk? It's entirely possible the same is true of cycling (I know that I catch myself taking more risks when riding with a helmet than without one).

It's also not at all clear that the spike we're discussing is due to helmetless bicycle riders (notice that deaths for car occupants tick up in similar proportion).

To your prioritization point, there's a lot of evidence that increasing the number of cyclists on the road makes interactions with cars safer for all cyclists (because drivers are habituated to looking for them), so any intervention that decreased the number of cyclists to make them "safer" could have inverse consequences.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#249

Post by yencabulator »

supriyo-biswas wrote: post #96
eptcyka wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in some places around Europe, my quality of life is always increased by owning a motor vehicle. I do not use it daily, I do not commute with it, but there are trips which are far more practical with a personal motor vehicle than otherwise, like fetching people from an airport, taking a pet to a vet, driving further out for a hike, hauling groceries.

Maybe some sort of distance-dependent taxation on cars may be a more viable option, so that people can enjoy private commutes when they absolutely need it, while still pushing people towards public transport.

Nordic countries are generally pretty happy to tax fuel, and that acts as a distance-dependent tax on cars.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#250

Post by giardini »

adammarples wrote: post #190
giardini wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"26% of The Netherlands is below sea level, and 59% of The Netherlands is vulnerable to flooding by the sea in case of high tide and severe storms." from: "How Much Of The Netherlands Is Below Sea Level?" https://netherlandsinsiders.com/how-much-of-the-netherlands-... If I were less risk-averse I'd live there too. But flooding is "Nature's way of telling" me to move.

May I hazard a guess that you love somewhere on the San Andreas fault?

No way!8-))
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