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Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

telegraph.co.uk

271–280 of 390 posts

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#271
Though I'm usually more than happy to bash The Google for what it is, I think focusing on their role here distracts from the big picture.

As a civilization, we have forgotten how to do search. Maybe that's in large part due to over-reliance on The Google, but in any case, we've collectively chosen to not only replace search with "algorithms" but grossly underpower any remaining shred of search that still exists.

Ask yourself when was the last time you used any search engine anywhere and came away feeling empowered by the tool in front of you. Maybe this is a feeling that few if any young people today understand. Back in the early days of the web, search engines, even the lousiest ones, made the user feel like all the world's information was at their fingertips. If a query returned few relevant matches, it probably meant your query wasn't good. In other words, search was a power tool.

Virtually every form of search engine today, whether it's The Google or a search function on a specific site, is embarrassingly stuck in the past. But it's much worse than that. Not only have there been virtually no meaningful advancements in advanced search features, but the search engines are often not capable of correctly handling basic queries. There are pages I know exist that contain certain verbiage, and my default expectation today is to expect a search engine to not be able to find it. Apparently software developers, or perhaps companies themselves, are so disinterested in search that they won't even use Elasticsearch. Whatever they're doing, they're doing incorrectly. At best, they're doing what was adequate in 2005. By now, search should have become far more advanced. Instead, search engines today fall somewhere between being a mess of algorithmic results plus ads or something barely at the level of a CS student project.

Although I like the Kagi search engine, its primary differentiator from other search engines is its ability to filter out the detritus. In terms of results and advanced search capabilities, it's not necessarily that much better in other regards.

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#272
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to where in my comment I asserted that hallucinations are equal to other sources of errors, or even compared them? Because I tend to agree with you. I tried to point out that info found externally always has to be cross-checked, no matter where it originates.

I meant the sentence I quoted, or the part > [...] especially on Wikipedia. Of course, transformer models have the same issues I agree that one should be critical of all sources, including Wikipedia. I don't agree that GPT is an information source comparable to Wikipedia or scientific studies. Both can be wrong, biased or incorrect though. In other words, I would never consider the usage of any LLM worth to cross-che…

Using Wikipedia to cross-check can be dangerous since it often is the source of the content you‘re trying to verify.

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> git reset --hard HEAD~2 Stupid computer. That does 2 commits. > git reflog expire --expire-unreachable=now For the love of god why? The reflog is there to save your bacon. I guess because they are still reachable from the remote's reference so they won't completely vanish just yet. > git push -f Now they're gone unless you can find the hashes somewhere else. The objects might still be present. > I apologize that tw…

Nah, they likely didn't bother trying to ask GPT-4 and imagined hypothetical answers which could lead beginners to shoot themselves in the foot. ChatGPT Plus with a short custom instruction to answer in steps, respond tersely, ask clarifying questions where needed, and make recommendations wherever possible replied to "how to reverse a pushed commit in git" with: --- To reverse a pushed commit in Git, you can either…

Okay the previous wasn't real GPT but this is?

> git reset --soft [COMMIT_HASH]^

The docs say files are unchanged.

> git reset --soft [COMMIT_HASH]^

Committing the unchanged files so like an amend, a squash, not exactly reversing, reverting, or undoing anything except commit messages.

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#274
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is not going to stop. Your local cinema is not going to stop posting movies and show times on their website. The only sites that are going to be hit by this are those that make money on ads.

Wikipedia doesn't cover everything. > The only sites that are going to be hit by this are those that make money on ads. There are plenty of those and they do provide value - else they won't have been able to survive all these years via ads.

There are plenty of sites, but would you rather follow a link to one of them, or to a personal blog with info about the same thing?

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#275
post #37
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sites with actual useful information don’t need much effort to create and maintain. If it was all just wikis it’s perfectly great. The problem only became when “entrepreneurs” realized they can game this system to gain money.

I'm struggling to think of a site I use regularly that could function without either adverts or someone else (businesses, donations, or the site owner) putting money to fund it, and I honestly can't think of one. The modern internet just wouldn't function if we took entrepreneurship out of it.

Better than ads, sites can make money by selling products and services. A website with information on gardening, that also sells the equipment and seeds you need. A website with travel information that also sells tours. A website with any programming and IT information that also sells software.

These kind of sites make much better money than ad and affiliate sites, but people haven't understood it yet.

The online ad industry – especially on social media – is a huge scam. Small and medium size businesses can't resist throwing in some bucks in the ad casino, and Facebook will tell them they had so many thousands of impressions, funny that it didn't turn into any sales? Online ads are also very comfortable and easy for some worthless manager who has a set advertising budget. Just throw away the money into social media ads instead of thinking through a campaign.

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#276

"Search results plagued with ‘clickbait’ would have been an understatement 20 years ago. The parts of the open web you access from Google/search (most of it) is almost entirely made-for-google' ranking algorithims. The situation is worse than it is on closed social media, including Google's YouTube. Professional YouTubers are also making content for rankings above all, but the fact that it's their own face/voice keep…

I guess the lonely planet books are still valuable.

Yes. We’d used one to do a backpacking adventure a twenty years ago but kinda forgotten about them. But recently went on a sun holiday and quickly got frustrated by the normal websites and travel blogs found online, and instead brought them the LP and also the Rough Guide. Both were soooo much better content and advice than the online blogs. (My pref was for LP).

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> git reset --hard HEAD~2 Stupid computer. That does 2 commits. > git reflog expire --expire-unreachable=now For the love of god why? The reflog is there to save your bacon. I guess because they are still reachable from the remote's reference so they won't completely vanish just yet. > git push -f Now they're gone unless you can find the hashes somewhere else. The objects might still be present. > I apologize that tw…

None of this was GPT and thankfully I know what the git commands I used in my not-so-great joke answer do. As replied in the sister thread, I think that the risks of trusting GPT answers can be more subtle.

I'm torn because the joke was technically spreading FUD but I also found it very funny. ...upvoted

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#278
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use chatgpt for such things(and I'm working hard on getting an equivalent service quality from my local models as I hate the not-at-all-OpenAI, but they have the best model now). Then again I never know if the thing it says are true recipes or hallucinations. If you think about it, it's exactly like on the general Internet.

How well does that work? I would imagine recipes iate really hard to entrust to chatgpt. At least for baking, where ratios and timing is crucial. LLMs have very bad sense of numbers generally. How would you verify it’s not all bogus hallucinations? At best it’s a source of inspiration, for ingredients you can freestyle from yourself.

I didn't mean recipes specifically, but this type of question where I'm looking for a very specific short answer. For example, I don't know if some software has some specific feature, or I ask, write me a short python script fragment that does this or that. Or how do I reverse a git commit that was pushed etc. Or what is the thermal conductivity of kingpin extreme paste. All are very specific things years ago I would use Google to search for, but today Google is almost useless on this.

It does hallucinate sometimes, it writes programs using non existent apis etc, but I've found asking it "is what you said correct" or "is it true?" or "how did you came up with this answer" tend to produce replies like : I'm sorry, this is wrong, this is good instead. On rare occasion it also produces a bad answer and when you ask it will alternate betetwo bad answers, but most of the time it does pretty well.

Here I tried asking it for a recipe for chocolate brownies. I also tried to find out if it gave correct answers. Based on my past use I'd say it's pretty likely the recipe is OK. What do you think? https://chat.openai.com/share/2b36e42c-b6f2-42f3-b67e-f4a5a7...

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate ads as much as everyone else (and actively block the hell out of it) At the same time, ads made a lot of the free web possible. I run services making money with ads: I would not be able to work on them without. Or maybe the revenue I would make is too little to bother with all the stupid EU regulations around VAT - ads offer a simple solution and you get a single B2B transaction, while providing values to Cust…

> At the same time, ads made a lot of the free web possible. What made all the free web possible was free software, not ads. Google and the likes created empires through ads and breaking laws, we owe nothing to them. The sooner they go, the better. Also, they don't own the ads business model, there are healthier ways to sell, buy and deliver ads and that's not what Google and Meta are doing. They need to go. > And a…

It was all considered risky and niche (anything on the internet).

What made the free web possible was first and foremost, access to it.

Then, probably a combination of technological, cultural, and economic factors and the human beings behind the scenes who worked to either create software to give it away or to make money with ads by creating foobar service.

Yes, free software, and yes, because of advertising.

It’s both.

Re: Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims DeepMind co-founder

#280
post #191

"Search results plagued with ‘clickbait’ would have been an understatement 20 years ago. The parts of the open web you access from Google/search (most of it) is almost entirely made-for-google' ranking algorithims. The situation is worse than it is on closed social media, including Google's YouTube. Professional YouTubers are also making content for rankings above all, but the fact that it's their own face/voice keep…

I dreamed of building a website like the type I grew up on in the late 90s and early 2000s. The gamefaqs, mrfixitonlines and casterrealms-type websites for me were at the forefront of making this internet medium to be better than books, voice or anything else for that matter for the transmission of information. Fast forward 20 years later. I think I've spent close to 300k on the website and team to help with it. I do…

So kprofiles provides a service - providing information to those looking for it - be it fans or journalists. I don't get why it shouldn't be ranked high since it's been a valuable resource since 2016?
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