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Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

dannymekic.com

331–340 of 386 posts

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#331
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what would happen if there were not politicians, if the parliament of Europe were the sum of all its citizens voting for laws in some sort of mega-stack-overflow consensus system. A part of me wants to believe this madness would end. Another part fears that we would try, at least for a few months, total surveillance and bisections as a form of capital punishment. But on the bright side, we would be able to c…

Instead of money spent to influence politicians, money will be spent to influence the masses. The net effect will be same, money "wins".

Instead of money being spent on improving lives of politicians, money may end up being spent on improving lives of the masses.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you select people at random, they will have even less understanding of the issues they vote on than career politicians This isn't necessarily true. Politicians aren't selected for understanding; their ability to obtain and retain power is entirely due to their ability to attract voters and make deals with other politicians. If you assume a normal distribution of traits, then when people are selected based on scor…

Traits may be normally distributed, but they are not independent. People who are good at something tend to be above average in other things. People have done some research on that in Finland. Due to mandatory military service, the vast majority of men have taken the same intelligence and personality tests. The research found that male politicians performed better in the intelligence test and were more likely to have…

Citizens assemblies, also called minipublics, have been trialed for years in many places and in many different topics.

In real life these people do not produce legislation/recommendations that are of less quality than politicians.

I recommend a book called "open democracy" that goes into detail about this kind of decision making processes. The OCED has also done a lot of work and has a few reports on the matter too, if you look at their recommendations for "the future of democracy".

Some big experiments in this area have been done in France as recent as a few months ago, in Ireland, in Iceland and the European union as a whole did a very big one a few years ago.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#333
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lot easier to do something than it is to stop people from doing something. Usually to prevent actions you need total control or strong incentives. This is the same dynamic as browser feature development. Adding things is easy. Preventing additions is hard. We end up saying yes to things that disadvantage most people.

If that were true, how come NIMBYism is so successful?

NIMBYs don't win all the time.... And in a lot of places they do have near total control.

NIMBYs are usually suburbanites, and if they're in a smaller municipality they can exert a large amount of control over the city government and planning process. The auto dependent single family suburb has been heavily propagandized and ingrained in American culture that many times no one questions it, and those advocating for some walkable, or mixed use areas are in the minority.

Just look at California, the state requires every city adopt and update a multipart plan for various purposes. One of those parts is called the "Housing element", it requires cities to plan and zone for a minimum amount of growth and affordable housing. over the last year or two many of these plans have come up for renewal and lots of the smaller (and especially more conservative) cities have been reluctant, or out right refused to meet the states requirements. They want to keep their car oriented suburban small community, affordability be Damned.

The state did pass this fun law that created this thing called "the builder's remedy". Where if a city does not have a compliant housing element the city loses its discretion and must approve any permit that meets its building code, sans any density requirements. And these rights vest, so even if the city latter approves a compliment those builders can still utilize those permits. (Carrot and stick approach to getting cities to comply)

But this is only after decades of the California housing affordablility crisis growing and yimby advocates fighting for less restrictive zoning.

https://openscopestudio.com/californias-zoning-holiday-what-...

TL;DR NIMBYs are ussally the majority (or at least the louds and most engaged).

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is size and power the important thing?

If you don't want to be bullied by the bigger and more powerful, yes.

Was Sweden being bullied before the EU?

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#335
post #78

Its just me that thinks there is something really wrong with the way politicians try to pass such controversial laws? Politicians bring up something controversial. Most of the time influenced by some lobby with very little interest in public benefit. To combat this lots of people need to do activism. Those people need to devote your time and energy to prevent such thing. So far it sounds good but after the dust settl…

I wonder what would happen if there were not politicians, if the parliament of Europe were the sum of all its citizens voting for laws in some sort of mega-stack-overflow consensus system. A part of me wants to believe this madness would end. Another part fears that we would try, at least for a few months, total surveillance and bisections as a form of capital punishment. But on the bright side, we would be able to c…

Careful now. Regardless of what the proposed laws say, this kind of talk is exactly what this tech will eventually be used to crush.

We're really lucky that slavery was mostly abolished before we regressed to this stage.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#336
I first heard about this push on a VPN’s website nearly a year ago. What worries me more is how little this is actually reported in media. How can people protest against something that they haven’t even heard of?

I think it’s this hegemonic power to undermine fundamental rights of not only europeans clandestinely through convoluted bureaucracy and media suppression and under the pretext of child protection, even more harrowing than the proposal itself. It is absolutely important to fight against child porn and other criminal activities, but mass surveillance is not the answer.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#337
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on why, please? From the outside looking in, most European countries seem much better at most things than where I live in the US (unless you're very wealthy, I guess).

You are on forum of temporarily embarased billionaires (now coping with mass FAANG layoffs), so what do you expect?

This is kind of a lazy answer.

Who said anything about billionaires? Many people see the benefit of a more vibrant growing economy in the US vs the EU and at the end of the day, end up personally benefiting from it to with (much) higher wages.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#338
post #78

Its just me that thinks there is something really wrong with the way politicians try to pass such controversial laws? Politicians bring up something controversial. Most of the time influenced by some lobby with very little interest in public benefit. To combat this lots of people need to do activism. Those people need to devote your time and energy to prevent such thing. So far it sounds good but after the dust settl…

I wonder what would happen if there were not politicians, if the parliament of Europe were the sum of all its citizens voting for laws in some sort of mega-stack-overflow consensus system. A part of me wants to believe this madness would end. Another part fears that we would try, at least for a few months, total surveillance and bisections as a form of capital punishment. But on the bright side, we would be able to c…

Switzerland has a direct democratic system. It works great for them. Incidentally, they have very strong privacy laws.

Full disclosure, I’m originally from a EU country but I am now a resident in Switzerland.

Everyday I feel blessed to be living in a country where my fellow humans are in charge and not some ignorant fools who’s primary skill is to elbow themselves to power.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning any form of paid lobbying, sponsorship, etc. All the politicians should be interested in are votes (eg the preference of the people). It won't fix it, but it'll help.

> Banning any form of paid lobbying, sponsorship, etc. The problem with this is then the only people that are able to meet with / influence your representatives are the people that are independently wealthy enough to travel to them and take the time off from work to do so. If you can't pay someone to speak on your behalf, and you can't afford to take the time to speak for yourself, how do you get heard? Are you perso…

how is this substantially different from the current situation, where people are able to simply purchase influence? At least banning paid lobbying has the advantage of forcing the wealthy to spend time rather than money. Everyone has only 24 hours a day.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law is bad but spouting off incorrect nonsense like this only makes you look unhinged. Everything you said is just completely made up.

To me, it's your thinking that's unhinged. You seem blind to the reality we live in. In your country, Nigel Farage had his banking account cancelled because of having the wrong ideology. What you qualify as impossible is already happening. People are already getting economically punished for opposing ideas imposed by the state and elites. Don't trust me? Go right now to your linkedin and make a post saying: "I dislik…

No, he didn’t. He had his bank account cancelled because he isn’t rich enough to bank with Coutts. Ironically, a retained EU law means he MUST be allowed to open a bank account, just not the business account he wants.

The difference is that I actually read their report, you didn’t.

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