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Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

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Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#71
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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You mean the very thing that made the USA the single world superpower by allowing it to act as a unified block instead of a pile of constantly bickering and sometimes warring states? Yeah gee why would we think that.

How has that been working out for the EU?

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#72
Keep in mind that the EU is doing other funny things like providing a publicly-paid "DNS4EU" which is (for now) totally voluntary and free-to-use but surely will be enforced eventually on any digital product.

It drives them crazy that law enforcement is that incompetent to enforce law so the solution is to criminalize everyone instead of developing operational excellence in law-enforcement.

[0] https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/ict-standards-procure...

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#73
post #60

Its just me that thinks there is something really wrong with the way politicians try to pass such controversial laws? Politicians bring up something controversial. Most of the time influenced by some lobby with very little interest in public benefit. To combat this lots of people need to do activism. Those people need to devote your time and energy to prevent such thing. So far it sounds good but after the dust settl…

What alternative do you propose? The politicians are elected representatives of and by the people.

If a law doesn't pass, the contents can't be brought up in a new law for a minimum of 5 years.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#74

The title should be shortened from "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission's Controversial Push for Digital Surveillance" simply to: "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission" . The EC is sheer horror. The thousands of years old saying: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state" has never been truer. I've done a short consulting gig at the European Parliament, which at least tries to be th…

Also it's important to notice the "European Commission" is the fancy name for the representatives of all the EU countries Of course, it has a structure, executive, etc, but essentially they are composed of representatives of the EU27 countries

It is a very complex system, and I say that as a US person who is used to a very complex system. In fact, I'm not really aware of any democratic nation with anything quite as byzantine.

The EU Commission President is nominated by the EU Council, which is itself comprised of the heads-of-state of the member states. The President is then confirmed by the EU Parliament, which is directly elected by voters. So far this seems straightforward.

However: the remaining Commission members are selected by the Council of the European Union (CotEU), which is apparently not the same thing as the EU Council! Except that the Commission President also gets a vote in their selection. I tried to understand how the CotEU members are accountable to the voting public, but frankly the Wikipedia article is too hard to understand. The elected Parliament does not appear to get a say in this part of the selection.

Then the Commission President selects the policy direction and assigns policy areas to the Commission members. The articles I found hint at the idea of consensus voting, but don't state it very explicitly. In any case, the President seems to have overwhelming authority within the Commission, given their role in selecting the members and the policy initiatives. At the same time, 26 out of 27 Commission members are selected by the CotEU and presumably the President depends on their good graces.

I assume this makes more sense to EU citizens, who must learn about it in school. In total, power seems to be distributed in confusing ways across seven different governmental bodies, of which only one is directly elected? It's an interesting system, but maybe not the one I would choose given the current outcome.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#75

The title should be shortened from "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission's Controversial Push for Digital Surveillance" simply to: "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission" . The EC is sheer horror. The thousands of years old saying: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state" has never been truer. I've done a short consulting gig at the European Parliament, which at least tries to be th…

I’m not sure I understand : European Commissioners are nominated by elected National governments, and approved by parliament. How is this not democratic ? Whether you agree with these policies or not is a different matter altogether.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#76
post #8

The title should be shortened from "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission's Controversial Push for Digital Surveillance" simply to: "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission" . The EC is sheer horror. The thousands of years old saying: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state" has never been truer. I've done a short consulting gig at the European Parliament, which at least tries to be th…

Haha, sure, it’s real invigilation terror over here in Europe. We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. But, the European Parliament is against this legislation, and for the moment it’s not passing.

It would be beneficial to understand the underlying mechanics (very untransparent centralization of power to an unelected commission) and the risks involved before smugly dismissing concerns about it.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#77

The title should be shortened from "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission's Controversial Push for Digital Surveillance" simply to: "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission" . The EC is sheer horror. The thousands of years old saying: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state" has never been truer. I've done a short consulting gig at the European Parliament, which at least tries to be th…

Honestly a quite funny post. You offer strong emotion wrapped in a story lending supposed crédence but give no single fact of what this abhorrent thing is that the European commission is doing. You read one (extremely technical and niche) regulation and it's horrible , in what way? And the European commission does not adopt regulations, it's parliament and council that do (the commission only proposes them). Honestly…

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Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#78

Its just me that thinks there is something really wrong with the way politicians try to pass such controversial laws? Politicians bring up something controversial. Most of the time influenced by some lobby with very little interest in public benefit. To combat this lots of people need to do activism. Those people need to devote your time and energy to prevent such thing. So far it sounds good but after the dust settl…

I wonder what would happen if there were not politicians, if the parliament of Europe were the sum of all its citizens voting for laws in some sort of mega-stack-overflow consensus system. A part of me wants to believe this madness would end. Another part fears that we would try, at least for a few months, total surveillance and bisections as a form of capital punishment. But on the bright side, we would be able to correct for bad legislation much faster.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#79
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You mean the very thing that made the USA the single world superpower by allowing it to act as a unified block instead of a pile of constantly bickering and sometimes warring states? Yeah gee why would we think that.

Does the US system seem like an asset to you?

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#80
post #76
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, sure, it’s real invigilation terror over here in Europe. We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. But, the European Parliament is against this legislation, and for the moment it’s not passing.

It would be beneficial to understand the underlying mechanics (very untransparent centralization of power to an unelected commission) and the risks involved before smugly dismissing concerns about it.

The commission has a member of each EU country and those members come from the elected governments.

It‘s just like the government is not elected in many countries but instead the parliament is elected and that votes for a prime minister who chooses his ministers.

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