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Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

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Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#31

Post by dmcq2 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #19
kubb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, sure, it’s real invigilation terror over here in Europe. We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. But, the European Parliament is against this legislation, and for the moment it’s not passing.

"Haha, sure, it’s real invigilation terror over here in Europe. " More like slow addition of smothering layers of bureaucracy upon bureaucracy until your breathing space is severely limited. Combined with our ghastly demographics, I think our growth is a thing of the past. In many individual EU countries including mine, something like Chat Control 2.0 would not fly and the attention of the public would be very negati…

The principle of subsidiarity was supposed to counter making laws affecting individuals like this would, this sort of stuff should be up to individual countries. The bureaucrats are trying to expand out of their remit.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#32

Post by jjgreen »

sofixa wrote: post #20
hackandthink wrote: post #9

These bureaucrats overwhelm citizens with enormous amounts of text. Expression of opinion is regulated here. A few principles should be enough. The most important one should be: Every citizen is free to express his opinion. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

> The most important one should be: Every citizen is free to express his opinion. And if their opinion is that, all Jews are subhuman and have to be exterminated? (real life example) Most EU countries have "hate speech" laws explicitly banning hate speech such as Nazis and Anti-Semites. Nobody sheds any tears over their opinions being restricted, and nobody should. Debating with pidgeons doesn't work.

In the UK, the Home Secretary is pressuring the Police to interpret the phrase "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" (a slogan often used in pro-Palestinian demonstrations) as an "expression of a violent desire to see Israel erased from the world", possibly making it a "racially aggravated" public order offence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67110119

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#33

Post by rayiner »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #7

The title should be shortened from "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission's Controversial Push for Digital Surveillance" simply to: "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission" . The EC is sheer horror. The thousands of years old saying: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state" has never been truer. I've done a short consulting gig at the European Parliament, which at least tries to be th…

[flagged]

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#34

Post by sofixa »

ta8645 wrote: post #26
sofixa wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thousands of years old saying: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state" has never been truer Can you tell me what is the correct number of laws? What's your threshold? And what happens when a new thing appears / enters the mainstream, do you have to remove an old law first before creating a new one? As a concrete example, LLMs and how they relate to copyright and image rights. Should we have to…

> As a concrete example, LLMs and how they relate to copyright and image rights. Why the heck is any new law needed at all for copyright? The only accusation is that LLMs did not respect current copyright laws, not that the current copyright law is insufficient. Specifically, there was a commonly used corpus of pirated copyright material (books3) that was used to train many LLMS. Its hosting was withdrawn when challe…

Because an algorithm isn't a human, so the usual "fair use" and inspiration arguments do not apply 1:1. The possibilities opened by e.g. film studios recording voice actors, trainign algorightms on them and then just reusing their voices, or deepfaking actors' faces, or Copilot giving verbatim copyrighted code are endless and quite different than what was currently possible.

Does Microsoft violate copyright by training a model on copyrighted works? A human can read them and use them for inspiration, is that what a model does?

Why the heck do people think laws should be warped to try to be applied to things the writers of the law couldn't even conceive of? Are planes regulated the same ways that cars and horses before were?

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#37

Post by raverbashing »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #7

The title should be shortened from "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission's Controversial Push for Digital Surveillance" simply to: "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission" . The EC is sheer horror. The thousands of years old saying: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state" has never been truer. I've done a short consulting gig at the European Parliament, which at least tries to be th…

Also it's important to notice the "European Commission" is the fancy name for the representatives of all the EU countries

Of course, it has a structure, executive, etc, but essentially they are composed of representatives of the EU27 countries

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#38

Post by rayiner »

jjgreen wrote: post #32
sofixa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most important one should be: Every citizen is free to express his opinion. And if their opinion is that, all Jews are subhuman and have to be exterminated? (real life example) Most EU countries have "hate speech" laws explicitly banning hate speech such as Nazis and Anti-Semites. Nobody sheds any tears over their opinions being restricted, and nobody should. Debating with pidgeons doesn't work.

In the UK, the Home Secretary is pressuring the Police to interpret the phrase "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" (a slogan often used in pro-Palestinian demonstrations) as an "expression of a violent desire to see Israel erased from the world", possibly making it a "racially aggravated" public order offence. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67110119

But it does mean that, if you have even the most passing familiarity with the geography of the region.

Re: Undermining Democracy: The EU Commission's Controversial Push for Surveillance

#40

Post by [deleted] »

api wrote: post #22
TacticalCoder wrote: post #7

The title should be shortened from "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission's Controversial Push for Digital Surveillance" simply to: "Undermining Democracy: The European Commission" . The EC is sheer horror. The thousands of years old saying: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state" has never been truer. I've done a short consulting gig at the European Parliament, which at least tries to be th…

It seems like over the past 10 years there has been a global retreat from freedom and democracy. China is returning to at least a superficially softer version of Maoism. Russia has returned to Stalinism. The Middle East never had much of a liberal tradition but it’s certainly not gained any ground. The US is flirting with populist strong man rule with Trump and RFK. South America seems to keep oscillating between aut…

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